Let's Go Blues

Let's throw out the nonsense that a <6000 mile wall will keep anyone out and change out perspective of the situation:

What the wall is, is a Public Works project. Someone has to build it, someone has to manufacture supplies and someone has to assemble it in whatever shape or design is concocted for it. All across the US. This would put people to work. The pipeline in North Dakota, for instance, put a ton of people to work people were called in -outside- the area, to assemble it. Granted, it's not a forever kind of job, but it does create jobs and circulate the money the Gov't has through the hands of people who might really need it.

I'm not a fan of Uncle Donald, but I'd rather spend the money on something that puts people to work here and circulates Gov't money back into the private sector than spend another trillion dollars blowing up some country whose name we can't pronounce.

The basic economics of this wall are so ridiculous, it borders on being insulting that the White House expects Americans to be so stupid. You tell Mexico they're going to pay, then it turns into Congress is going to approve 12 or 15 billion or whatever to pay for it, but Mexico is really paying for it because all their imports are going to be taxed to the tune of what was it, 20% or something?

So let's see... Company X in Mexico produces a sneaker that costs $100, but will now cost a customer $120. Company Y in America produces a comparable sneaker that also costs $100 but now sees the opportunity to jack up their sneaker to $110 because it's still cheaper than the Mexican one. They make $10 more per sneaker, American's still buy that one because it's cheaper than the Mexican ones, we get screwed out of $10 and not a penny of it actually goes to paying for the stupid wall. Fantastic.

Meanwhile, Mexico is getting us back great with this legislation they're working on to agree not to import any American corn and get it from South America instead. So we antagonize them and they stop buying midwestern corn. Hey Iowa, how's voting for Trump working out for you guys now? Trump may be a semi-decent businessman, but he's playing with the big boys now and the experienced politicians across the globe are going to crush us.

To me I don't really care if Mexico pays for the wall or not - just build it. We have a significant problem with illegal immigration that needs to finally be dealt with.

Kerfuffle wrote:To me I don't really care if Mexico pays for the wall or not - just build it. We have a significant problem with illegal immigration that needs to finally be dealt with.

How does the wall solve that though? The most common way for somebody to be here illegally is by overstaying their visa. A wall doesn't help that. There are also more illegal immigrants leaving the country than entering.

cardsfan04 wrote:

Kerfuffle wrote:To me I don't really care if Mexico pays for the wall or not - just build it. We have a significant problem with illegal immigration that needs to finally be dealt with.

How does the wall solve that though? The most common way for somebody to be here illegally is by overstaying their visa. A wall doesn't help that. There are also more illegal immigrants leaving the country than entering.

The wall will serve 2 purposes - making it more difficult to get over the border (not impossible obviously). Second it will slow the drug cartels getting their dope over the border. There are not more illegals leaving than entering. I understand why they want to come here - there is no money to be made in Mexico and it's a tough life. I blame that on the Mexican government who does nothing to improve the lives of their people so they don't feel the need to leave. But since they won't do anything we have to do something to protect our citizens. I hate hearing about families like Kate Steinle who lose a beloved family member to an illegal criminal immigrant. If US law was followed she would be alive today.

Kerfuffle wrote:

cardsfan04 wrote:

Kerfuffle wrote:To me I don't really care if Mexico pays for the wall or not - just build it. We have a significant problem with illegal immigration that needs to finally be dealt with.

How does the wall solve that though? The most common way for somebody to be here illegally is by overstaying their visa. A wall doesn't help that. There are also more illegal immigrants leaving the country than entering.

The wall will serve 2 purposes - making it more difficult to get over the border (not impossible obviously). Second it will slow the drug cartels getting their dope over the border. There are not more illegals leaving than entering. I understand why they want to come here - there is no money to be made in Mexico and it's a tough life. I blame that on the Mexican government who does nothing to improve the lives of their people so they don't feel the need to leave. But since they won't do anything we have to do something to protect our citizens. I hate hearing about families like Kate Steinle who lose a beloved family member to an illegal criminal immigrant. If US law was followed she would be alive today.

Do you have anything to support the claim that there are more people entering than leaving or is it just your assumption? They have actual data to prove it.

I'm all for addressing illegal immigration. But, I think it's important to make sure the solution is more than symbolic. It needs to address what is actually happening, not just a perception of what is happening. You also don't say anything about how the wall will address people overstaying their visas which is the biggest culprit of illegal immigration.

BTW, that's an honest question about whether you have anything to support the claim that illegal immigration is rising. I have looked into what Pew has done to make their claim and I think their methodology is reasonable. I believe they have been using a similar methodology for a number of years, so even if the actual number is wrong, the trend seems like it should be reasonably accurate.

That said, it is an estimate, and if there are other studies that dispute their findings, I would be interested in seeing what they say. While I think what they have shown is convincing, estimates are just that, estimates.

The long and short of what they do is look at census data and compare it to the amount of people legally entering the country and use the difference as an estimate of total illegal immigrants. It's not quite that simple, but that's the gist. Even if it's not perfect on the true raw numbers, the trend should be meaningful as the methodology remains ~constant.

The wall is to stop/slow new illegals from coming in. The way you deal with those overstaying their visas is deportation. We need to make some progress with that and actually enforce the laws. It's a comprehensive package - you have to crack down on businesses hiring illegals, you have to withhold federal dollars from all sanctuary cities, and you have to deport. Immigration is fine but it needs to be legal. Unfortunately the left likes to confuse the two and make them one and the same.

You're arguing talking points instead of addressing the things I am saying. I'm not on the left and I'm not suggesting you are anti legal immigration (not sure where that came from). I'm not using the words racist or xenophobic or any other talking points. I'm challenging you on whether the wall actually accomplishes what you say it will. Because, it is not fiscally conservative to spend billions of dollars on something if it doesn't actually solve the problem it is trying to solve.

It seems to me that the most reasonable place to address illegal immigration is the biggest cause of illegal immigration, overstaying visas. I don't know why that's confusing the issue, and I'm not defending sanctuary cities (again, not sure where that came from).

If we are going to spend billions of dollars to address the problem, shouldn't there be evidence that is easily pointed to to support the claim that the illegal immigration population is increasing? The Pew research makes sense to me, but it's not iron clad. If there's other evidence to suggest Pew is wrong, I'd love to see it, but I don't know of any. And I don't understand supporting spending billions of dollars if you can't point to actual evidence that the illegal immigration population is increasing. That just seems like wasteful spending to me.

Donald Trump clearly has narcissistic personality disorder, he only ran for president for himself to prove that he could, and his goals of destroying the executive branch bureaucracy more or less plays into conservative ideologies about "less government," while having the amazing effect of drastically increasing the likelihood he makes more money, a lot more money, at his business ventures when he's done being president, if ever. He doesn't give two f*** about the working man. He's conned all of the Rust Belt just like he's conned and insulted so many others to get to the top. But that's just me.

"The wall" is one of the most ill-conceived, pointless, wasteful spending projects I have ever heard of. It's akin to killing an ant with a sledgehammer. Okay, there's ae a problem with illegal immigration but "this" is your solution? NOTHING else comes to mind?

Drug cartels use everything short of space travel to transport their goods. Tunnels with miniature railroad carts, the anal cavities of addicted human trafficking victims, planes, boats, you name it that's how they move it. Yet Trump insists on spending billions of dollars to build a wall that will do as close to nothing as makes no difference.

"But it will have a positive economic impact." A WALL is your idea of a public works project? None of your roads in town could use some work? Bridges? How about your public schools? Have any homeless veterans in your community? No, lets build a wall instead. I applaud the fiscal conservatism (generally speaking) of the republican party but this is a drastic and alarming departure based on emotional knee jerk reaction and little else.

Here's a tidbit that may have slipped under the radar. The Mexican government is considering retaliation in the form of no longer importing corn from America. I believe that's somewhere between 2 and 3 billion dollars of corn they import from us annually. Because of Trump, half of Iowa is about to get screwed. Chew on that, middle America.

The man may talk a big game, but he's playing politics with the big boys (and girls) now and everything he does will be met in kind with retaliatory legislation that will absolutely destroy this countries economy. He's literally going to fiddle while America falls apart. Mike Pence may be an out of touch religious whackadoodle, but I'd rather have him and his predictability over Trump. And that may very well happen if we keep going down this path of insanity and the Dems are able to capture the house and senate in 2018, which is a real possibility.