THE OFFICIAL POLITICS THREAD

[glen a richter]

I, personally, am sick of politicians shoving wedge issues down our throats to divide the populace. I don't give a flying toot if two gay people want to get married--my sister in law is gay, she's married, I'm happy for her. I don't care if marijuana is legal or illegal--if it was legal, it would be the #1 cash crop in America, and prohibition was proven to not work in the 20's.

I care about this: in a number of countries, fathers are given a decent paid paternity leave. Some countries are completely bonkers offering over a full year, but other countries offer nothing. Diddly squat. This is one of them. I burned five sick days when my son was born and then had no choice but to return to work. I'll probably burn another five sick days when my next child is born, and then have to scurry on back to work because this country doesn't give a rats you know what about dads being involved in the earliest part of their children's lives. I'm not asking for a year off, but damn if we can't even get two freakin' weeks for the birth of our own children!

I care about 99% of the country being treated like we matter. Under both parties, the rich have gotten richer, the poor have gotten poorer and the middle class has gotten a stiff rod up our asses. You know why the economy is stumbling along? Because gas is too freaking expensive, wages (for a lot of people) are too freaking low and no one can afford to take their family out for some fun. Disney World is something like a hundred damn dollars a ticket now! A baseball game is out of this world expensive if you want to bring the wife and kids, and forget about going out to a nice dinner once in a while. The only people getting rich are the guys at the top and they're not trickling down anything. It trickles down into their offshore accounts and that's where it stops.

These are the things that matter, but all anyone cares to talk about are the damn wedge issues. Who cares? Is my marriage threatened because two gay guys I never met want to get married? Does it hurt me if some guy in Colorado wants to legally smoke a joint that's regulated and not laced with some nasty, deadly crap like what he might have gotten on the black market if it was still illegal there?

[cardsfan04]

I, personally, am sick of politicians shoving wedge issues down our throats to divide the populace. I don't give a flying toot if two gay people want to get married--my sister in law is gay, she's married, I'm happy for her. I don't care if marijuana is legal or illegal--if it was legal, it would be the #1 cash crop in America, and prohibition was proven to not work in the 20's.

I care about this: in a number of countries, fathers are given a decent paid paternity leave. Some countries are completely bonkers offering over a full year, but other countries offer nothing. Diddly squat. This is one of them. I burned five sick days when my son was born and then had no choice but to return to work. I'll probably burn another five sick days when my next child is born, and then have to scurry on back to work because this country doesn't give a rats you know what about dads being involved in the earliest part of their children's lives. I'm not asking for a year off, but damn if we can't even get two freakin' weeks for the birth of our own children!

I care about 99% of the country being treated like we matter. Under both parties, the rich have gotten richer, the poor have gotten poorer and the middle class has gotten a stiff rod up our asses. You know why the economy is stumbling along? Because gas is too freaking expensive, wages (for a lot of people) are too freaking low and no one can afford to take their family out for some fun. Disney World is something like a hundred damn dollars a ticket now! A baseball game is out of this world expensive if you want to bring the wife and kids, and forget about going out to a nice dinner once in a while. The only people getting rich are the guys at the top and they're not trickling down anything. It trickles down into their offshore accounts and that's where it stops.

These are the things that matter, but all anyone cares to talk about are the damn wedge issues. Who cares? Is my marriage threatened because two gay guys I never met want to get married? Does it hurt me if some guy in Colorado wants to legally smoke a joint that's regulated and not laced with some nasty, deadly crap like what he might have gotten on the black market if it was still illegal there?

That seems to echo my general sentiment. I've never really thought about paternity leave, but that makes sense. Some things are more important than work, and it's a shame if somebody has to sacrifice it because of money. That's not right.

Those wedge issues are a big reason why I've been turned off to the GOP of late. I don't self-identify as a Democrat, but I would have a hard time voting for somebody that is against gay marriage. SCOTUS thankfully made that a moot point, but it goes beyond general disagreement on the issue.

The most important issue to me is strengthening the middle class. The widening wealth gap is a major problem and it keeps getting worse. Any strong economy has a strong middle class. This is what needs to be addressed. When a politician makes a major part of his platform cracking down on weed and gay marriage, it tells me he doesn't get it.

I mentioned before that I'm not sure I agree with all of Bernie Sanders' solutions, but I absolutely love that he's bringing these up as core issues. I'm undecided on voting for him, but regardless I think he's going to be good for this race if he forces the discussion to issues that matter.

[cardsfan04]

I thought Huckabee and Cruz did pretty great. They were both very knowledgeable about all issues and in line with what I wanted a pres candidate to say.

Trump stumbled on a couple of questions about foreign policy and deflected. Kasich (who I like as well) failed to answer the question asked of him a lot and just said what he wanted to say in that moment.

Rand hurt his chances
Rubio seemed to hold his own (maybe in 4-8 years)
Carson will make someone a great VP
The rest...meh

Trump deflected because he lacks substance. He rose entirely on being the anti-politician. But, he doesn't just lack political correctness. He's a jerk. His schtick will grow old, especially when he doesn't pair it with substance on important issues. He's going to fall for the same reason he rose.

Carson was more likable than I've thought in the past. And he's a really smart guy. But, he seems lost when it comes to issues.

I disagreed with Rubio a lot, but he carried himself well. He spoke of being the party of the future though. If he turns that rhetoric into sensible policy, I'll listen to what he has to say. I think he's a threat to Hillary.

I don't see myself voting for Rand Paul, but I do like one thing about him a lot. He's consistent with a lot of his small government stuff. GOP loves to talk about being about limited government, but they also want to legislate morality on issues that don't really impact society at large. That's my biggest turnoff to the GOP. At least he's consistent on social issues with his limited government stuff.

[glen a richter]

All the pro-Trump republicans better watch out. He's putting your party in a tough spot. If he gets nominated he's almost certain to lose but if he doesn't get nominated he could easily Perot your official nominee. Imagine a Clinton beating a Bush because of a strong independent candidate again. Hello 1992.

[abc789987]

Did you guys watch the same debate that I did? It was entertaining for sure but no one said anything in particular... I really wanted to watch it again and tally how many questions were actually answered. Over half the time the moderator would give the person another 30 seconds to attempt to answer the question and not go off on a tangent.

Trump will not get nomination. He's only leading in polls right now because he's different and everyone knows who he is... He's a joke. But he's entertaining...sometimes...

I agree with glen on most of his points. Maternity leave for men should be guaranteed. Hell, I think you should be able to take as much time off as you want...

The marriage issue is done... It's not getting reversed... Anyone who tries is just wasting their breath.

Pot should be legal... It's getting there. Don't know numbers but most people are coming to their senses about this issue.

Gas prices is a tough one for me lol. My job picks up when gas prices go up... but it is nice on the pocket book as long as the pocket book gets filled up every other week.

Calling it now, Hillary will be president... Unfortunately I don't really think it makes a difference. They are all the same. Although that being said I still will be following everything... It's entertaining and gives me a little bit of hope that something could be changed... But I doubt it.

[The Flake]

Did you guys watch the same debate that I did? It was entertaining for sure but no one said anything in particular... I really wanted to watch it again and tally how many questions were actually answered. Over half the time the moderator would give the person another 30 seconds to attempt to answer the question and not go off on a tangent.
That happened way to often and that is a tell tell sign of who knows domestic and foreign policy well.

Trump will not get nomination. He's only leading in polls right now because he's different and everyone knows who he is... He's a joke. But he's entertaining...sometimes...
Agreed. Trump doesn't stand a chance to win the republican ticket. Full of bluster and way too much arrogance and self to get the nod.

I agree with glen on most of his points. Maternity leave for men should be guaranteed. Hell, I think you should be able to take as much time off as you want...
Call me old school or whatever but give me a break. Maternity leave for men....I've never heard a bigger load of crap before in my life. Suck it up and go to work. Spend as much time with your kids in the evening and weekends as you can...quality time...and let the women nurse the children all day. Give them a bottle at night, read a bedtime story.... be a real dad and go to work. For that matter, if you want time off work, take it and go find another job when your good and rested / bonded. I own a business and give my guys plenty of time off for whatever they really need to do and I'm fair. This is ridiculous. Sheesh.

The marriage issue is done... It's not getting reversed... Anyone who tries is just wasting their breath.
As much as I hate to agree, your right, this issue is done. It will be fought about for the next 30 years but won't be reversed. Our country is on a moral slide into the pool of depravity.

Pot should be legal... It's getting there. Don't know numbers but most people are coming to their senses about this issue.
Agree. Beer is much worse than pot and it's legal.

Gas prices is a tough one for me lol. My job picks up when gas prices go up... but it is nice on the pocket book as long as the pocket book gets filled up every other week.
Not an election issue. Free market economy will dictate gas prices thru supply and demand. Gas prices aren't that bad right now thanks to increased US supply.

Calling it now, Hillary will be president... Unfortunately I don't really think it makes a difference. They are all the same. Although that being said I still will be following everything... It's entertaining and gives me a little bit of hope that something could be changed... But I doubt it.
No way Hillary wins unless Trump runs as a third party and splits the Republican vote. I think trump will self destruct and turn off any voter support he may have had.

[The Flake]

All the pro-Trump republicans better watch out. He's putting your party in a tough spot. If he gets nominated he's almost certain to lose but if he doesn't get nominated he could easily Perot your official nominee. Imagine a Clinton beating a Bush because of a strong independent candidate again. Hello 1992.

Not worried a bit. He will self destruct before too much longer and not be a threat at all.

[cardsfan04]

The marriage issue is done... It's not getting reversed... Anyone who tries is just wasting their breath.
As much as I hate to agree, your right, this issue is done. It will be fought about for the next 30 years but won't be reversed. Our country is on a moral slide into the pool of depravity.
[/color]

Flake, I have 2 questions about this that I always wonder about, but never really get a chance to ask. You and I have different viewpoints on this. That's fine. We're not going to change each other's minds and I'm not trying to start a flame war. I just know you follow the Bible very closely, so I'm curious to your rationale on it.

1. From a legal standpoint, marriage has several civil rights (no estate tax, power of attorney, etc.). In a country founded on a separation of church and state, why should civil liberties be determined over a religious teaching?

2. I'm no Biblical scholar, but I've read the passages that are used to condemn gay marriage. While I think the context of the entire chapter they are in makes it less black and white than some would say, for sake of discussion, let's say the only valid interpretation is that the Bible condemns gay marriage. It also condemns things like eating shellfish. There are other examples, but I'll keep it simple with just this one. If the Bible is absolute, why is gay marriage worthy of moral outrage but shrimp at my Super Bowl party is not?

[The Flake]

The marriage issue is done... It's not getting reversed... Anyone who tries is just wasting their breath.
As much as I hate to agree, your right, this issue is done. It will be fought about for the next 30 years but won't be reversed. Our country is on a moral slide into the pool of depravity.
[/color]

Flake, I have 2 questions about this that I always wonder about, but never really get a chance to ask. You and I have different viewpoints on this. That's fine. We're not going to change each other's minds and I'm not trying to start a flame war. I just know you follow the Bible very closely, so I'm curious to your rationale on it.

1. From a legal standpoint, marriage has several civil rights (no estate tax, power of attorney, etc.). In a country founded on a separation of church and state, why should civil liberties be determined over a religious teaching?

2. I'm no Biblical scholar, but I've read the passages that are used to condemn gay marriage. While I think the context of the entire chapter they are in makes it less black and white than some would say, for sake of discussion, let's say the only valid interpretation is that the Bible condemns gay marriage. It also condemns things like eating shellfish. There are other examples, but I'll keep it simple with just this one. If the Bible is absolute, why is gay marriage worthy of moral outrage but shrimp at my Super Bowl party is not?

First of all, You can ask me anything you would like and it won't upset me in the least. I'm probably the most easy going guy you will every meet. The only exception to this rule would be the outright blasphemy of God. Then, I might get upset but still am still not supposed to sin in my anger.... so fire away!!

1.) In what constitutional law is it written that there is a "separation of church and state"? You will not find this written in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights as they were originally written. What everyone is hanging their hat on with this sentiment is the 1947 ruling by the Supreme Court which changed the law so that "The Government" cannot prefer one religion over the other or give power to A Church to run the state. All taken from misc. writings by Thomas Jefferson and made rule in the early 20th century by an over reaching SC that I think couldn't possibly know or understand where it would lead. The SC was trying to protect the nation from a "national church".

Marriage is a religious union of two people, blessed by God which no government has power over. If you want to give governmental benefits to homosexuals that wish to form a lasting union with each other, then differentiate it from marriage. If this is the path that America wishes to tread then by all means do it in the name of freedom for all, but don't call it marriage and don't make ordained ministers perform a ceremony in the sight of God and ask him to bless it when it is quite evident in the Bible that it is "an abomination unto God."

2.) As with all 'sin', God loves the sinner but hates the sin. We are all sinners and must seek forgiveness. Homosexuality is a sin as shown in many passages throughout the Bible. The most commonly known passages of sexual immortality and sin are in Genesis 1:19 and Leviticus Chapters 17 thru 22 I think. There are numerous other rebukes for sexual immorality throughout the rest of the Bible. Listed are other areas both Old and New Testament. Judges 19, I Kings 14 & 15, Romans 1, I Corinthians 6, I Timoth 1, Jude 6. That being said, Some things changed with the 'old' law when Jesus was born. He was here to fulfill the law thereby taking away the need for sacrifices and he also clarified the law with the Sabbath and the eating of foods (Paul as well later in the new testament). It is very clear if you read the passages I just listed that sexual sin of all kinds are against Gods law. Sabbath and eating specific foods were law created "for" mankind and not "against" God.

Homosexuality as well as other sexual sins are the only ones I know of that use words in the Bible such as vile, abomination, detestable, etc. and words mean something. Give those passages a quick look.

[cardsfan04]

Thanks for the response. Not quoting because it will make the page super long.

1. From a legal perspective, it sounds like we actually agree except for a few semantics. I don't see the need to change the name to differentiate between hetero- and homosexual unions. But, agree that clergy shouldn't be forced to perform ceremonies their religion disagrees with. I don't think that was ever really a goal of the SCOTUS case though.

2. Thanks for the clarification.

[glen a richter]

I can get the church not wanting to marry homosexuals, that's their right as a religious institution. But the church isn't the only place where people can marry, and if two men or two women want to marry through a justice of the peace or a different church or whatever then that's their right to freedom and equality as Americans. It's also their right to not be discriminated against, as Americans. The pope himself said who is he to judge? He's not god and neither is any mere mortal. We aren't in a position to judge anyone else. Judge not, lest ye be judged, after all.

[glen a richter]

Call me old school or whatever but give me a break. Maternity leave for men....I've never heard a bigger load of crap before in my life. Suck it up and go to work. Spend as much time with your kids in the evening and weekends as you can...quality time...and let the women nurse the children all day. Give them a bottle at night, read a bedtime story.... be a real dad and go to work. For that matter, if you want time off work, take it and go find another job when your good and rested / bonded. I own a business and give my guys plenty of time off for whatever they really need to do and I'm fair. This is ridiculous. Sheesh.

Definitely want to address this one. From a political party that proclaims to care about family values, their definition of family values is a bit askew. I don't understand how spending time with your child is contrary to being a real dad. I never said fathers should get a year off to raise the children, I said that fathers should get two weeks. I'm, personally, in a nice position. Like my dad, I chose time over money by going into teaching. I didn't know if I would ever have children someday when I made that decision, but here I am with a son and a new baby on the way. It's wonderful for me during the summer, but it's horrible for me during the school year because in order to make ends meet, I have to teach my regular school day, plus a night school program, plus private tutoring. Now, in the 50's and 60's it may very well be true that it was possible to have the traditional family set up where mom raises the kids, dad goes to work, you have a car in the driveway and a chicken in the pot every night, but this is the 21st century and it doesn't work that way anymore. Prices of everything are skyrocketing and your typical family either has two parents working or one parent working--a lot--to pay for the necessities, forget about any luxuries. Ideally, I would be able to go to work, come home, hang out with my son, go to sleep, repeat. A lot of people who are in other professions don't get nearly the same luxury of time I get, but again in order to earn two months with my son, I have to sacrifice 10 months leaving for work at 6 AM and getting home at 10 PM. How that helps promote a strong family bond is beyond me, but it's something I can't avoid because the system in this country is set up so that the middle class can't survive the way they used to, and soon won't be able to survive at all. Paternity leave is just a tiny slice of the entire family values pie. You can't promote family values if the family is never together, and you can't have the family together if someone always has to be at work, whether that's mom or dad or both. Where republicans go on and on about family values all the time, it's about having a "traditional family", not a gay family, or if this were the 1960's not an inter-racial family. But the traditional family is very difficult to establish with the economic system established in the 80's and maintained since then. No child should have to live through "Cats In the Cradle"... "when you coming home dad, I don't know when, but we'll get together then." Every child needs both parents and especially with the first child, every parent needs each other to help get things settled and work a routine out that's conducive to properly raising that child. There is no worldly reason why dads shouldn't get two weeks for a child. Besides which, it takes 40 weeks for a baby to be born from conception to birth. We're not talking about a guy gaming the system by taking paternity leave every month. We're talking about two weeks, probably about two years apart, twice, maybe three times, in the entire time he'll be in the workforce.

[The Flake]

I can get the church not wanting to marry homosexuals, that's their right as a religious institution. But the church isn't the only place where people can marry, and if two men or two women want to marry through a justice of the peace or a different church or whatever then that's their right to freedom and equality as Americans. It's also their right to not be discriminated against, as Americans. The pope himself said who is he to judge? He's not god and neither is any mere mortal. We aren't in a position to judge anyone else. Judge not, lest ye be judged, after all.

I don't want to be sounding too in tune with the 'rainbow movement' here and definitely wanting to distance myself from anything looking like acceptance to the whole 'alternative' lifestyle thing, I want to make it clear that homosexuality should be deemed illegal, immoral, and considered the same as murder, theft, lying while under oath, adultery, etc. and should be punished under the law as it used to be. Sodomy as a crime was also upturned by the Federal Supreme Court when States were upholding and enforcing the law at the state level. This happened in the late 20th century.

We are not judges but no one seems to have a problem with passing judgment and jailing a murderer. In my opinion, the two are no different. Furthermore, I wouldn't hire a homosexual just because they are homosexual. I should have the right / freedom to do that. I don't want to be around it and don't want those I work for / with or my family for that matter to be around it and or represented by it. I don't want them in any way to be connected to me. I believe the Amish call this shunning sin.

God is the ultimate judge for sure but we are called on as Christians to be holy and to shun sin in all forms. We are also called on to use spiritual discernment while living our lives. Murder has an immediate effect of ending someone's life while the effects of sexual immorality and its destructive effects are more subtle and devastating to the masses.

I know, this isn't what most people think anymore.

[The Flake]

Call me old school or whatever but give me a break. Maternity leave for men....I've never heard a bigger load of crap before in my life. Suck it up and go to work. Spend as much time with your kids in the evening and weekends as you can...quality time...and let the women nurse the children all day. Give them a bottle at night, read a bedtime story.... be a real dad and go to work. For that matter, if you want time off work, take it and go find another job when your good and rested / bonded. I own a business and give my guys plenty of time off for whatever they really need to do and I'm fair. This is ridiculous. Sheesh.

Definitely want to address this one. From a political party that proclaims to care about family values, their definition of family values is a bit askew. I don't understand how spending time with your child is contrary to being a real dad. I never said fathers should get a year off to raise the children, I said that fathers should get two weeks. I'm, personally, in a nice position. Like my dad, I chose time over money by going into teaching. I didn't know if I would ever have children someday when I made that decision, but here I am with a son and a new baby on the way. It's wonderful for me during the summer, but it's horrible for me during the school year because in order to make ends meet, I have to teach my regular school day, plus a night school program, plus private tutoring. Now, in the 50's and 60's it may very well be true that it was possible to have the traditional family set up where mom raises the kids, dad goes to work, you have a car in the driveway and a chicken in the pot every night, but this is the 21st century and it doesn't work that way anymore. Prices of everything are skyrocketing and your typical family either has two parents working or one parent working--a lot--to pay for the necessities, forget about any luxuries. Ideally, I would be able to go to work, come home, hang out with my son, go to sleep, repeat. A lot of people who are in other professions don't get nearly the same luxury of time I get, but again in order to earn two months with my son, I have to sacrifice 10 months leaving for work at 6 AM and getting home at 10 PM. How that helps promote a strong family bond is beyond me, but it's something I can't avoid because the system in this country is set up so that the middle class can't survive the way they used to, and soon won't be able to survive at all. Paternity leave is just a tiny slice of the entire family values pie. You can't promote family values if the family is never together, and you can't have the family together if someone always has to be at work, whether that's mom or dad or both. Where republicans go on and on about family values all the time, it's about having a "traditional family", not a gay family, or if this were the 1960's not an inter-racial family. But the traditional family is very difficult to establish with the economic system established in the 80's and maintained since then. No child should have to live through "Cats In the Cradle"... "when you coming home dad, I don't know when, but we'll get together then." Every child needs both parents and especially with the first child, every parent needs each other to help get things settled and work a routine out that's conducive to properly raising that child. There is no worldly reason why dads shouldn't get two weeks for a child. Besides which, it takes 40 weeks for a baby to be born from conception to birth. We're not talking about a guy gaming the system by taking paternity leave every month. We're talking about two weeks, probably about two years apart, twice, maybe three times, in the entire time he'll be in the workforce.

Small businesses cant sustain these types of benefits for their employees. I personally don't expect large businesses to pay for these types of benefits. Most liberals cant open their eyes to see that the world is built on a supply / demand system. The free market dictates what someone is willing to pay someone for any certain job, be it a construction worker, an iron worker, a teacher, a CEO, a sports athlete, ect. Out of this max possible income for a given job, the owner has overhead (which include many various thing that occur monthly but cannot be attributed to direct work done), employer taxes, corporate taxes, product cost, etc. When all this is paid for, then you can look at net profit and what type of benefits you can provide. It is the employers job to make his customers happy first but to also create loyalty with employees by providing benefits, security (with work), and making family first. This means that if someone has an emergency, then that person's family matters are of paramount importance as should be attended to immediately.

That being said, to take away the flexibility for a business owner of what benefits to give and how much to give employees is like putting a chain around each owners neck. Business is always up and down. You have good months and bad months, good years and bad years. A business owner has to way this and survive in an ever volatile and growingly global market. That's tough!!!

To mandate two (Bernie Sanders is saying 14 if im not mistaken) weeks maternity leave for men - No. That's selfish and irresponsible. If there are complications, employers should understand and give you the time off. If they don't, there are lots of other employers out there that will hire you.
To mandate 10 days paid vacation - No. It is up to the employee to earn paid time off thru hard work and productivity. When you do that, the employer has gross profits with which to provide vacation time.
To mandate 50 days guaranteed sick leave - Sure....unpaid. Employers can't cover this cost either. It's hard enough if you are an integral cog in someone's workforce to have the absence alone, much less the cost of paying them as well. I had an employee that became very ill. During the initial period of a couple weeks, we paid this guy until it was going to hurt our business and the other employees and their families. We then parted ways by paying his due vacation time and stopped. Just could do any more.

I guess I'm trying to say, these things sound good but don't really work in the real world. If a company is doing / can do this, they are price gouging their customers.

[cardsfan04]

I can get the church not wanting to marry homosexuals, that's their right as a religious institution. But the church isn't the only place where people can marry, and if two men or two women want to marry through a justice of the peace or a different church or whatever then that's their right to freedom and equality as Americans. It's also their right to not be discriminated against, as Americans. The pope himself said who is he to judge? He's not god and neither is any mere mortal. We aren't in a position to judge anyone else. Judge not, lest ye be judged, after all.

I don't want to be sounding too in tune with the 'rainbow movement' here and definitely wanting to distance myself from anything looking like acceptance to the whole 'alternative' lifestyle thing, I want to make it clear that homosexuality should be deemed illegal, immoral, and considered the same as murder, theft, lying while under oath, adultery, etc. and should be punished under the law as it used to be. Sodomy as a crime was also upturned by the Federal Supreme Court when States were upholding and enforcing the law at the state level. This happened in the late 20th century.

We are not judges but no one seems to have a problem with passing judgment and jailing a murderer. In my opinion, the two are no different. Furthermore, I wouldn't hire a homosexual just because they are homosexual. I should have the right / freedom to do that. I don't want to be around it and don't want those I work for / with or my family for that matter to be around it and or represented by it. I don't want them in any way to be connected to me. I believe the Amish call this shunning sin.

God is the ultimate judge for sure but we are called on as Christians to be holy and to shun sin in all forms. We are also called on to use spiritual discernment while living our lives. Murder has an immediate effect of ending someone's life while the effects of sexual immorality and its destructive effects are more subtle and devastating to the masses.

I know, this isn't what most people think anymore.

I can buy a Christian using the Bible to condemn homosexuality. I don't agree with that viewpoint and think it's fairly cherry-picked. But, I get that there are verses that can be pointed to that say that. Comparing it to murder seems a bit overboard though.

[glen a richter]

That's a poor comparison. In murder, one person ends up dead. In a homosexual relationship neither partner dies and both want to continue their relationship. I don't think murder ever involves two willing people. It's most certainly a crime.

Would you rather have a murdered on the loose or a polite, hard working, productive gay couple who happen to share different bedroom activities than you and your wife? I don't think anyone in upstate NY was screaming for the cops to "catch the gays!" when Matt and Sweat escaped a while back. They wanted piece of mind that two dangerous criminals would be back behind bars, not that there would be some friendly gay people not being gay anymore.

[abc789987]

All I can say if wow, Flake... I'm really happy people like you are in the minority. I hope we can stop the marriage talk in this thread... It will go no where. People like Flake are set in their ways.

[The Flake]

That's a poor comparison. In murder, one person ends up dead. In a homosexual relationship neither partner dies and both want to continue their relationship. I don't think murder ever involves two willing people. It's most certainly a crime.

Would you rather have a murdered on the loose or a polite, hard working, productive gay couple who happen to share different bedroom activities than you and your wife? I don't think anyone in upstate NY was screaming for the cops to "catch the gays!" when Matt and Sweat escaped a while back. They wanted piece of mind that two dangerous criminals would be back behind bars, not that there would be some friendly gay people not being gay anymore.

Like I said, the effect of murder is evident and immediate. The adverse effect of allowing deviant sexual behaviors, no not only allowing but glorifying and praising their differences from the norm are disastrous for society and for the mental and physical health of each other. This has been a problem since man has walked the earth and fulfills the most base instinct of man and makes them act like a beast.

There are lots of things that are considered ok now that didn't used to be ok in societal norms. My dad didn't let "us kids" watch Threes Company because 'a man was living with two women out of wedlock'. Having children out of wedlock used to be taboo but now is readily accepted. Queers not only have come out of the closet but our White House shines rainbow lights across the nations capitol in celebration. I know this doesn't make sense to anyone today but it is a travesty in my opinion that we let evil and sin corrupt what we think and see and do without even realizing it. Media is flooded with murder, theft, gays, etc. and people praise these activities as good when the truth is the polar opposite. "Good" in mans eyes has never been "Good" in Gods eyes. As a people, we have taken our eyes off of God and began looking at the creation instead of the creator.

I don't want an unrepentant murderer or an unrepentant homosexual any where near me or my family. Both are toxic and dangerous. There are two deaths. One, the physical when our flesh bodies give out. Second, there is spiritual death that comes after judgment. Unrepentant sin will cause the second death and those who chose that path will be cast into the lake of fire with Satan upon Christ's return. Anyone who follows the 'alternative lifestyle' and lives it unrepentantly will be damned and everyone they effect to go down that path with them is party to murder.

You may say...but I don't believe in your God....that doesn't matter because he is still God and he makes the rules that we are to follow. Just because you have justified in your mind what you think is right doesn't make it right in Gods book.

Call me prejudice or whatever but that's my opinion and it will never change.

[The Flake]

All I can say if wow, Flake... I'm really happy people like you are in the minority. I hope we can stop the marriage talk in this thread... It will go no where. People like Flake are set in their ways.

Agreed. Let talk other issues.

[cardsfan04]

All I can say if wow, Flake... I'm really happy people like you are in the minority. I hope we can stop the marriage talk in this thread... It will go no where. People like Flake are set in their ways.

Agreed. I shouldn't have opened that can of worms.