You guys survive the riots down there?

[Kerfuffle]

How far is Scottrade from Ferguson? We have several hundred protestors this morning in Chicago but the crowd seems to be pretty much university students and other millenials and seem to be interested in getting on camera than protesting. Not a good situation down there by you guys.

[JesusNEVERexisted]

Scottrade is several miles from Ferguson. The only major disturbances were in Ferguson and some areas of the city. I was actually surprised there weren't more people protesting because I heard people were coming from all over America!

[cprice12]

There are protests all over the place...groups marching, shutting down highways and whatnot. But the vandalism and violence in the St. Louis area seems to be contained primarily to Ferguson. Some minor stuff elsewhere.

I'm tired of it all. Everyone is.
I think the peaceful protesters have simply overdone it and are just pissing everyone off now. They have been protesting for months. Enough already. People are aware of the situation and are aware of the points trying to be made. The only thing the protests are accomplishing now is allowing the troublemakers to join them and use them as a shield when they cause damage.

The looters and troublemakers need to be beaten and made an example of. I'd welcome some excessive police force against the assholes breaking windows, looting and torching the businesses of innocent citizens. But the police have their hands tied now. They can't use much force at all because of the criticism they have received already for excessive force.

Personally, to me, when police are dealing with violent folks in the street in a riot type situation, the police should be able to use whatever force necessary to contain the situation and cease the violent activity. If you don't want to get beaten by a billy club, then you shouldn't be out in the middle of the street, yelling at cops and surrounding yourself with others who are throwing molitov cocktails and whatnot. Protesting is one thing...but when it turns violent, then it's no longer a protest.

[cardsfan04]

The peaceful protests don't bother me still. They go a little further than I care for sometimes (shutting down 44, etc.). I don't think the protests are going to change anybody's mind at this point, so their effectiveness is mostly lost. But, I get it. There's a long history of racial inequality in this country and a double standard in the justice system.

I think Jon Stewart really nailed it on this. "Tired of talking about it? Try living it." I'm the furthest thing from an oppressed class there is. I have a hard time telling a historically oppressed class when they should stop being angry.

The violence and looting though? (Frank) those guys. My guess is there was too much chaos for them to be able to pinpoint who did what in terms of setting fires, etc. But, if they could catch the culprits, lock em up. That bullshit needs to end and really just drowns out the more important message.

[JesusNEVERexisted]

The irony is if you read the police reports you'll see black witnesses said Brown charged Officer Wilson and he was justified in shooting Brown! But those witnesses never went to the press in fear of their life. Only liars like Dorian Johnson went to the press!

And I didn't even mention the strongarm robbery and assaulting a cop Brown committed, both felonies!

[not_a_wings_fan]

The irony is if you read the police reports you'll see black witnesses said Brown charged Officer Wilson and he was justified in shooting Brown! But those witnesses never went to the press in fear of their life. Only liars like Dorian Johnson went to the press!

And I didn't even mention the strongarm robbery and assaulting a cop Brown committed, both felonies!

The disconnect is that you (and most other white folk) are starting from a place where you accept the premise that the police/prosecutor are telling the truth; that the system works.

The reality is cops/prosecutors circle the wagons and right or wrong they protect their own.

So we've never met the black people who agree with Wilson, but how many black witnesses' statements that agreed with Brown's side were taken and never reported by the police? Why is it okay to assault the credibility of the witnesses who disagree with your position, but not apply the same level of scrutiny to witness statements that confirm your bias?

Idk, but your points here seem like someone who believes in Jesus with the amount of blind faith you are tossing about.

What actually happened?

I have no idea and neither do you, but the truth is often somewhere closer to the middle.

[cprice12]

The irony is if you read the police reports you'll see black witnesses said Brown charged Officer Wilson and he was justified in shooting Brown! But those witnesses never went to the press in fear of their life. Only liars like Dorian Johnson went to the press!

And I didn't even mention the strongarm robbery and assaulting a cop Brown committed, both felonies!

The disconnect is that you (and most other white folk) are starting from a place where you accept the premise that the police/prosecutor are telling the truth; that the system works.

The reality is cops/prosecutors circle the wagons and right or wrong they protect their own.

So we've never met the black people who agree with Wilson, but how many black witnesses' statements that agreed with Brown's side were taken and never reported by the police? Why is it okay to assault the credibility of the witnesses who disagree with your position, but not apply the same level of scrutiny to witness statements that confirm your bias?

Idk, but your points here seem like someone who believes in Jesus with the amount of blind faith you are tossing about.

What actually happened?

I have no idea and neither do you, but the truth is often somewhere closer to the middle.

In this specific case, I just find it hard to take the side of a man who manhandled a convenience store owner, robbed him, disobeyed a police officer multiple times, punched said police officer, and then tried to take a gun away from said police officer, then apparently charged at the officer after first trying to run away.
That is according to the evidence (if you believe the evidence)...the video at the convenience store...witnesses...shots being fired inside the police car...slight bruising on the officer's face, Michael Brown's blood being on the gun...forensics proving his hand was on the gun when it was shot, etc.

The end result is that he was shot and killed by that police officer. That is really dumbing down the case, but damnit...based on the evidence they have and the witnesses who gave statements, Michael Brown does not look innocent at all, and to me, it's not surprising that he was shot and killed based on the evidence.

I think the protesters are taking a stand on the wrong case here. I'm sure they could have picked a case where the outrage would be understood by a lot more folks. But right now, there are a LOT of people who don't think the officer used excessive force against Michael Brown and that it was self defense.

The evidence also indicates that Michael Brown's hands were not up when he was shot. How accurate that evidence is, I don't know...but it was apparently accurate enough to have come to that conclusion.

I think the outrage is much more justified in the choke hold case in NY...even though the suspect still resisted arrest, he didn't seem to be a threat and the methods used to arrest him seemed very excessive, especially for the crime he was accused of committing...which is a very minor offense. The dude had something like 30+ arrests prior to this incident, so he was no angel, but still.

I read a comment that said something along the lines of, "If those two victims had simply listened to the police, they would be alive today." I think that is a pretty fair statement...however, it does flippantly excuse the aggressive tactics used by the NYPD, which were caught on video.

I can understand the outrage in the NYPD case. I do not understand the outrage in the Ferguson case.
People are saying they want justice for Michael Brown. That is the rally cry. Why is that? Justice for what? Based on the evidence, the justice system worked just fine in this case. Just because you don't like the outcome of a legal proceeding, it doesn't mean there wasn't justice.

[JesusNEVERexisted]

Good points cprice. Don't forget the forensic evidence supports Officer Wilson! This guy was a cop for 6 years and NEVER even pulled his gun! WHY would he suddenly decide one day to hunt a black guy?? Dorian Johnson was outed as a liar because Brown was NEVER shot in the back! Johnson also has a history of giving false statements!

Plus the entire story of him going to college the following Monday is laughable! He just committed strongarm robbery plus assaulted a cop! In our state he's looking at 10 to 15 years in prison for that! So his college career would have had to wait till he was over 30!

[cprice12]

Good points cprice. Don't forget the forensic evidence supports Officer Wilson! This guy was a cop for 6 years and NEVER even pulled his gun! WHY would he suddenly decide one day to hunt a black guy??

It doesn't matter what Wilson did or didn't do during his previous 6 years as a cop as far as I am concerned. The only thing that matters is what happened that day.
It's all well and good that he was considered a "good cop"...but that alone doesn't mean he was innocent that day.

Dorian Johnson was outed as a liar because Brown was NEVER shot in the back! Johnson also has a history of giving false statements!

It doesn't even matter what Johnson said because to me, he isn't a credible witness. The fact that he had just finished robbing a convenient store WITH BROWN kind of taints his credibility...a lot. He also changed his story some after the evidence came out and proved he was wrong (lying). I don't see how anyone could take him seriously...and those that do believe his story obviously already had their minds made up and aren't changing their views for anything.

Plus the entire story of him going to college the following Monday is laughable! He just committed strongarm robbery plus assaulted a cop! In our state he's looking at 10 to 15 years in prison for that! So his college career would have had to wait till he was over 30!

I didn't know anything about that.
But I fail to see why him saying where he went the following day has anything to do with whether or not Michael Brown attacked Officer Wilson the day before.

[JesusNEVERexisted]

The point is Mike Brown's mom tried to make him sound like an upstanding citizen but the truth is he was in trouble multiple times as a juvenile and then commits a strong arm robbery at age 18! I find it VERY hard to believe he would've shown up to college a few days after the incident considering his propensity for lawlessness.

IF he was really interested in going to Vatterot College he wouldn't committ strong arm robbery 3 days before! Even blacks have this is NOT the guy for other blacks to use as a role model.

[dmiles2186]

The point is Mike Brown's mom tried to make him sound like an upstanding citizen but the truth is he was in trouble multiple times as a juvenile and then commits a strong arm robbery at age 18! I find it VERY hard to believe he would've shown up to college a few days after the incident considering his propensity for lawlessness.

But like Curt said about Officer Wilson, just because Brown had been in trouble before, doesn't mean he was that day. I know what the evidence says, and I'm not saying he was an angel, but it boils down to the only two people who really know what happened that day are Wilson and Brown. And only one is living to tell the story.

I get what the evidence says, but I also would have liked to see the case go to trial so they could vet everything. But who am I?

[cprice12]

The point is Mike Brown's mom tried to make him sound like an upstanding citizen but the truth is he was in trouble multiple times as a juvenile and then commits a strong arm robbery at age 18! I find it VERY hard to believe he would've shown up to college a few days after the incident considering his propensity for lawlessness.

But like Curt said about Officer Wilson, just because Brown had been in trouble before, doesn't mean he was that day. I know what the evidence says, and I'm not saying he was an angel, but it boils down to the only two people who really know what happened that day are Wilson and Brown. And only one is living to tell the story.

I get what the evidence says, but I also would have liked to see the case go to trial so they could vet everything. But who am I?

As far as riots and protests go...it wouldn't have mattered if it had went to trial.
Assuming the trial found the same as the grand jury (which they would have...let's be honest here), Ferguson would have burned just the same.
The protesters and rioters don't want justice, even thought that is what they say they want. They want revenge. And if Officer Wilson isn't in jail, they are going to take it out on the town. So Ferguson was screwed.

It's very frustrating to watch the fallout. And not just the rioting, but the condemning of the judicial system. In this case, the system worked. People are using the Michael Brown case as some sort of springboard to push for change in how the justice system works. Which, to me, is asinine. If you want to pick an incident and take a stand, go right ahead. But make it a case where the victim didn't just rob a convenience store and then attack a police officer. People can't be surprised that Michael Brown was shot and killed. You can't attack a police officer, try to wrestle his gun away from him and not expect to get shot. That is what the evidence says.

Taking a stand AGAINST a mountain of evidence, half of which is forensic...is just a bad idea.
If the evidence was on Michael Brown's side...then I can understand the outrage. But the mountain of evidence is against Michael Brown. I'm not sure what people expected. What people are asking for is an indictment of Officer Wilson...and ironically, (based on all of the evidence) that would have been the injustice.

[JesusNEVERexisted]

I had an encounter with 2 police officers in October. They were polite and so was I. If I hit them in the face and tried to grab their gun they would've shot me too regardless if I was black as the dark or WHITE as a ghost!

The moral simple: JUST LISTEN TO THE POLICE & DON'T PISS THEM OFF AND YOU'LL BE FINE! Neither Mike Brown or Eric Garner listened. If they did they'd be alive today!

[cprice12]

I had an encounter with 2 police officers in October. They were polite and so was I. If I hit them in the face and tried to grab their gun they would've shot me too regardless if I was black as the dark or WHITE as a ghost!

The moral simple: JUST LISTEN TO THE POLICE & DON'T PISS THEM OFF AND YOU'LL BE FINE! Neither Mike Brown or Eric Garner listened. If they did they'd be alive today!

The problem with that is, you won't always be fine. Well, you may be.
The point is, black folks feel they are harassed, profiled, etc just for being black. And there may be something to that...actually, there likely is in a certain number of cases. And that is sad.
Not all cops are assholes. Most are probably fine if you treat them with respect. But the bad cops are the ones that should be on trial here.

My whole point is that the Michael Brown case is a piss poor case to take a stand on for questioning the system and trying to stop police violence towards blacks. The force in this case seems warranted.

The choke hold case in NY however...that's a different story.

[glen a richter]

There's a short Key and Peele skit where the character is walking around a lily white town and being pursued by the cops until he puts up his hoodie which has a profile of a white guy on it. The cop gets confused, smiles, nods and drives away.

The reality is that a large percentage of crime is committed by a small percentage of the population and until they speak out against the criminal component, nothing will change. It's akin to peaceful Muslims not speaking out against terrorists from their religion. You want people to stop profiling you, work to make a change. Even Michael Jackson said that. If you want to make the world a better place, take a look at yourself and make that change.

[cardsfan04]

I had an encounter with 2 police officers in October. They were polite and so was I. If I hit them in the face and tried to grab their gun they would've shot me too regardless if I was black as the dark or WHITE as a ghost!

The moral simple: JUST LISTEN TO THE POLICE & DON'T PISS THEM OFF AND YOU'LL BE FINE! Neither Mike Brown or Eric Garner listened. If they did they'd be alive today!

The problem with that is, you won't always be fine. Well, you may be.
The point is, black folks feel they are harassed, profiled, etc just for being black. And there may be something to that...actually, there likely is in a certain number of cases. And that is sad.
Not all cops are assholes. Most are probably fine if you treat them with respect. But the bad cops are the ones that should be on trial here.

My whole point is that the Michael Brown case is a piss poor case to take a stand on for questioning the system and trying to stop police violence towards blacks. The force in this case seems warranted.

The choke hold case in NY however...that's a different story.

I think I mostly agree with this. I'm not as convinced of the need for deadly force in this case as I think you are. But, I'm not convinced it was unreasonable either. However, that's not really the important part of this to me. I mean, it is important, but not from a big picture perspective.

Most conversations I've heard on this seem to be centered around whether Wilson was justified and whether the protests are reasonable. Again, those aren't unimportant aspects of this, but I think the better questions to be asking are:

-If and why there is a racial divide when it comes to law enforcement (and how to fix it, which I don't have an answer to).
-When it should be acceptable for a cop to shoot someone (I don't have the exact figures, but it's far more common in the US than most other places).
-What the process should be after a police shooting. The prosecutor's office works very closely with the PD. Not speaking specifically about McCulloch, but when there's a close relationship between two groups, it at least raises questions of conflict of interest.

My views on this tend to be different than a lot of people's, and that's fine. I just think to move forward we should A) look at this as more than the Wilson v Brown situation and B) while not necessarily condoning the violence, etc., not ignoring the message being sent just because of disagreement over its delivery.

[glen a richter]

Peaceful protests are never unreasonable so long as they don't interfere in the day to day operations of the regular people (such as Occupy Wall St.: good cause, poorly executed).

When protesting turns to riots, looting, destroying the businesses of innocent people and generally trashing your own hometown, that's never reasonable. Every one of those looters should have been arrested. Protesting is marching towards City Hall and taking a podium, not marching towards Bobs Appliance Store, chucking a cinder block through his window and stealing a washer/dryer.

[not_a_wings_fan]

The point is Mike Brown's mom tried to make him sound like an upstanding citizen but the truth is he was in trouble multiple times as a juvenile and then commits a strong arm robbery at age 18! I find it VERY hard to believe he would've shown up to college a few days after the incident considering his propensity for lawlessness.

But like Curt said about Officer Wilson, just because Brown had been in trouble before, doesn't mean he was that day. I know what the evidence says, and I'm not saying he was an angel, but it boils down to the only two people who really know what happened that day are Wilson and Brown. And only one is living to tell the story.

I get what the evidence says, but I also would have liked to see the case go to trial so they could vet everything. But who am I?

See, it's this. It should have been a trial, in the open. Anyone who isn't a cop gets indicted.

The whole grand jury thing was a farse.

The ADA gave the jury the wrong law about use of force by cops...she gave them a copy of the law that was struck down as unconstitutional...in 1985, before she even started her legal career. Tell me that was "accidental" and I will tell you that Hiroshima was too. The prosecution failed to challenge witnesses that supported their desired outcome. They painted a "not guilty" picture from the beginning and the grand jury had no choice but to return the decision they arrived at.

Further, the grand jury only needs a super-majority. Jury trials require total agreement. If the white folks agree that the cop is innocent, then there's no criminal charges...moving on. A jury trial means everyone has to be on the same page. This case should have been tried by a jury.

I don't think Brown is the poster child for anything, but he's sort of the last straw for a community that has been abused by the system for generations. Again, saying this should all go away quietly is a rather privileged point of view.

The NYPD case is just another example of cops doing cop shit without repercussions. The Brown outrage is the product of literally hundreds of similar cases.

[JesusNEVERexisted]

Cops have a LOT of leeway when it comes to deadly force if they feel they're in danger which Officer Wilson clearly did. This would've been no indictment to most any grand jury in the nation.

Wilson himself said if Brown simply moved to the sidewalk instead of walking down the middle of the street NONE of this would've happened! Like I said, just listen to the cops and you'll be okay!

[not_a_wings_fan]

So can I murder people that don't listen to me just because I have a badge? I will just say I was threatened and we can move on.

They have leeway because prosecutors don't hold them accountable, not because they don't abuse their power.

It's not as simple as "listen to the cop" ... you have civil rights. Did Wilson start it? What were his first words to brown and what else happened? We will never know.

Ultimately his team decided he was credible and moved on... just another criminal n!@@3r who deserved what he got, right?