AP: Las Vegas expansion is 'done deal'

[glen a richter]

There are literally a million things to do in Vegas 24/7. My father in law's friend lives out in the Henderson suburbs and, as a sensible local, he isn't an addicted gambler... he puts a dollar in a slot machine when they go out to dinner, but that's it. As a transplanted New Yorker who's also nearly 70 years old, I wouldn't imagine if he had a hockey loyalty he'd be ready to change it because Vegas got a team. Given the myriad things available to do out there, though, I can't really imagine any long term interest in the team. It's a novelty and unless they succeed very early, it'll be a worn off novelty real quick.

As far as tourists go, there's the possible ticket. Will people get tired enough of gambling, going to shows and touring the landmark sites like the Valley of Fire or Hoover Dam that they say "hey, let's go to a hockey game!"? I would once if I was coincidentally out there when the Blues were in town, but I'm not a casual fan. The casual fan would probably say no. Quebec might get a team yet--the Vegas franchise when they're forced to re-locate in about 10 years.

[dmiles2186]

Off-topic: What recent success for the Jags are you referring to? The playoffs twice since 2000 and then sucking hind tit since 2007? Both the Rams and Jags have won 39 games since the Jags last playoff appearance in 2007. Jaguars have been as bad as the Rams, but Khan is actually trying to improve the team now which wasn't happening under the prior owner. St Louis folks always over-state things related to the Jaguars with out actually checking facts. Living here in Jacksonville, I notice this having been raised in St Louis. Jacksonville does support the team. The Jaguars, since 2010, were only under 90% capacity once - and that was 2013 when Khan had just bought the team and waited to make changes and the attendance was still 89.2% of capacity. In 2012 and 2014 the Jags had attendance capacities of 96.8% and 97.5% FYI, the Jags stadium is slightly bigger than the Edward Jones dome so the capacity numbers matter. But supposedly, Jacksonville doesn't support the Jaguars, which is a media created concoction. Meanwhile, St Louis hasn't cracked 90% capacity in a slightly smaller stadium once since 2010. FYI it takes fewer seat sales to break 90% in the Edward Jones Dome than it does to break 90% at Everbank Field.The Rams best percentage of capacity in attendance (87.2% 2013) since 2010 is actually lower than the Jaguars worst attendance (89.2% 2013) over the same time frame. But St Louis deserves the team more???? If Everbank Field (67164 seats) is a "college stadium," what is the Ed which has fewer seats (66965)?? Hmmm???

I do agree that people misunderstand what Jacksonville has going on much like they did in St. Louis. I used to be in that camp but since Khan bought the team (a guy I desperately wish would have landed the Rams to this day), I've taken a closer look and see what kind of vibe the Jags have going down there.

That said, the Jaguars are building something special down there. It's kind of exciting to see as an outsider.

One thing in defense of STL's attendance is that the time frame you are mostly referencing, 2010 to present, mirrors the time frame that Stan Kroenke took over as owner of the Rams. And you have to understand just how much he poisoned the well almost right away by not committing to St. Louis, by not talking to the fan base (twice in 6 years...literally), and by openly looking for, buying, and drawing up plans to build in LA. Bad football is one thing. A billionaire not giving one flying (Frank) about his paying fanbase is another. Drove people away in droves. Khan has committed to Jacksonville, he's invested in the stadium and the team, and generally turned the vibe around there.

[Kerfuffle]

another nice thing about Vegas is you can time a vacation or trip there to coincide with your team playing out there. I'm in Vegas twice a year for mini weekend trips and would love to see my Blackhawks on the road out there. Just as easy for Blues fans to catch the Blues playing Vegas as well.

[ecbm]

Off-topic: What recent success for the Jags are you referring to?

I was clearly making a relative point. I know that, by and large, the Jaguars have been horrible. But maybe you're not aware the Rams were, in fact, over a decade A HISTORICALLY BAD TEAM. Jacksonville made the playoffs in 2005 and 2007. The Rams' last winning record was in 2003. These are facts.

Also, for the record, I know Khan is a good owner. I can understand the fan base being enthused about him not least because I've experienced the opposite. Too bad he didn't get the Rams instead of that asshole Kroenke.

As for attendance-again, relatively I know you're right. But again, I think you're looking past a couple of things cavalierly. First, the Rams have been worse than the Jaguars aside from the very significant title the former won in StL. Other than that-since 2004, the Rams went 64-127-1, an average of 5.3 wins a season; over the same span the Jaguars went 79-113, an average of 6.6 wins per season. Since their inaugural seasons in St Louis and Jacksonville the teams have had 3 and 7 winning records, respectively. (That's right-for all the PSLs, the public stadium debt and the constant insults from Kroenke StL got all of 3 (Franking) winning seasons in two decades.) Second, St Louis Rams fans watched their owner openly lobby for a move to LA while completely neglecting the team for several seasons at the end. That the Rams were able to fill that building to nearly 90% while being actively fucked over by the owner and tolerating a product on the field that was not only atrocious but had been for a decade and more is a virgin-statue-crying-blood level miracle.

So I guess that makes two of us that are tired of media narrative bullshit, like "Rams fans didn't support the team".

What I understood to be the biggest reason the Nordiques had issues acquiring players was that they pretty much demanded they spoke French and were highly dismissive to the point of being discriminatory about a player who couldn't, regardless of their skill set or desire to join up with the Nords.

Mats Sundin, Joe Sakic and Peter Stastny were Quebecois?

According to Nate Silver, Vegas has probably 90K local hockey fans. Quebec has 500K.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/las- ... -nhl-team/

There's absolutely no way tourism makes that up, no way at all. Maybe this works out but it won't be because there are lots of factors that suggest it will. It's gonna be a huge...gamble...

[gaijin]

Maybe this works out but it won't be because there are lots of factors that suggest it will. It's gonna be a huge...gamble...

I see what you did there.

At this point, it seems only time will tell. Vegas is uncharted territory for the 4 major team sports, and being the first mover into a new market can reap huge rewards. But once again, that huge reward is not available without a huge risk.

[theohall]

Off-topic: What recent success for the Jags are you referring to?

I was clearly making a relative point. I know that, by and large, the Jaguars have been horrible. But maybe you're not aware the Rams were, in fact, over a decade A HISTORICALLY BAD TEAM. Jacksonville made the playoffs in 2005 and 2007. The Rams' last winning record was in 2003. These are facts.

Also, for the record, I know Khan is a good owner. I can understand the fan base being enthused about him not least because I've experienced the opposite. Too bad he didn't get the Rams instead of that asshole Kroenke.

As for attendance-again, relatively I know you're right. But again, I think you're looking past a couple of things cavalierly. First, the Rams have been worse than the Jaguars aside from the very significant title the former won in StL. Other than that-since 2004, the Rams went 64-127-1, an average of 5.3 wins a season; over the same span the Jaguars went 79-113, an average of 6.6 wins per season. Since their inaugural seasons in St Louis and Jacksonville the teams have had 3 and 7 winning records, respectively. (That's right-for all the PSLs, the public stadium debt and the constant insults from Kroenke StL got all of 3 (Franking) winning seasons in two decades.) Second, St Louis Rams fans watched their owner openly lobby for a move to LA while completely neglecting the team for several seasons at the end. That the Rams were able to fill that building to nearly 90% while being actively fucked over by the owner and tolerating a product on the field that was not only atrocious but had been for a decade and more is a virgin-statue-crying-blood level miracle.

So I guess that makes two of us that are tired of media narrative bullshit, like "Rams fans didn't support the team".

What I understood to be the biggest reason the Nordiques had issues acquiring players was that they pretty much demanded they spoke French and were highly dismissive to the point of being discriminatory about a player who couldn't, regardless of their skill set or desire to join up with the Nords.

Mats Sundin, Joe Sakic and Peter Stastny were Quebecois?

According to Nate Silver, Vegas has probably 90K local hockey fans. Quebec has 500K.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/las- ... -nhl-team/

There's absolutely no way tourism makes that up, no way at all. Maybe this works out but it won't be because there are lots of factors that suggest it will. It's gonna be a huge...gamble...

2008 through 2016. 39 wins for each team. That's BOTH TEAMS SUCKING FOR NINE SEASONS

2010 through 2016. Jags attendance ONCE below 90% capacity. Rams NEVER BROKE 90% capacity in same time frame while BOTH TEAMS WERE SUCKING as in 39 wins each.

So try that whole post again using the most recent facts, not the almost a full decade old facts.

And Stan didn't start lobbying for the LA move until the summer of 2014. What's the excuse before that when attendance with similarly performing team was worse in St Louis than in Jacksonville. That's the point. St Louisans claiming they support their team better than the Jacksonville community which the facts point out is blatantly untrue - as in the Jags - even while sucking and looking for a new owner were still over 90% capacity - unlike St Louis which never broke 90% after 2010 even before the team was "looking for a new owner."

But feel free to ignore the facts and make more excuses which don't hold up given the similar situations from 2010 through 2013 and the similar record - as in the exact same number of wins - over the last nine friggin' years.

[dmiles2186]

And Stan didn't start lobbying for the LA move until the summer of 2014.

Publicly. Most had a sense that Stan had one foot out the door when he bought the team.

[ecbm]

And Stan didn't start lobbying for the LA move until the summer of 2014.

Honestly, you don't know what you're talking about. He clearly planned to move the team from the day he bought it. That became more clear as time went on but his campaign to neglect the team so as to alienate fans so as to facilitate the move started from day one.

Again, ESPN isn't going to tell you about that though.

[WaukeeBlues]

Why didn't Quebec get approved for a team? A few months back it seemed that the NHL would bring in both Vegas and Quebec at the same time, or so it seemed. What changed on that end of things?

[gaijin]

Why didn't Quebec get approved for a team? A few months back it seemed that the NHL would bring in both Vegas and Quebec at the same time, or so it seemed. What changed on that end of things?

I believe Quebec City didn't get their submission bid in by the deadline and LV did. Not for lack of interest of Quebec's part, though.

[theohall]

And Stan didn't start lobbying for the LA move until the summer of 2014.

Honestly, you don't know what you're talking about. He clearly planned to move the team from the day he bought it. That became more clear as time went on but his campaign to neglect the team so as to alienate fans so as to facilitate the move started from day one.

Again, ESPN isn't going to tell you about that though.

It's not like the St Louis RSA did their part to keep the team, either, and that wasn't on ESPN. Breaking a lease by not actually doing what they agreed to do certainly isn't the way to keep an NFL team, but it's clearly all Kroenke's fault, right?? The RSA committed a major fault in this, because had they lived up to the lease they signed, Kroenke could not have moved the Rams until much later. Kroenke didn't buy the large chunk of land in L.A. until he and the Rams had won the arbitration hearing against the RSA. But I clearly know nothing about this - probably as little as you actually know about the Jaguars and their consistently 90+% fan support. Which the Rams haven't had since 2007 long before SK bought the team.

St Louis politics have been ridiculous when it comes to the NFL basically from 1984 onwards. It's almost always been about what the city can get out of the team vice doing what is necessary to keep a team in the first place. And that's not on ESPN either.

[Toasted Oates]

^ I hope you're not saying lack of fan support is why the Rams moved. I also hope you're not saying Kroenke had no desire to move to LA until he bought that land in Inglewood in 2014.

If you are, you are DEAD wrong and we'll fight about it until my eyes bleed from staring at this screen. Also, you're not invited to my birthday party.

[ecbm]

St Louis politics have been ridiculous when it comes to the NFL basically from 1984 onwards. It's almost always been about what the city can get out of the team vice doing what is necessary to keep a team in the first place. And that's not on ESPN either.

Eh? The Cardinals were allowed to move, in theory, because of the substandard building they had to share with the real Cardinals. They then moved to Arizona and spent 18 seasons sharing a building with a college football team.

You let me know what part of that is wrong, cool?

And that bolded line-that makes me wonder how well you've been following the politics of pro stadium construction. Cities getting shit out of teams? Uh, yeah. Sure.

[glen a richter]

Gentlemen, we're getting off track here. Let's not forget that a city which will not support an NHL team is getting an NHL team.

[ecbm]

Gentlemen, we're getting off track here. Let's not forget that a city which will not support an NHL team is getting an NHL team again.

Right. Let me get out my other soapbox...

Anyway, fixed that bolded part for you.

[cprice12]

Gentlemen, we're getting off track here. Let's not forget that a city which will not support an NHL team is getting an NHL team.

They might support it for a few years...maybe. But unless they are successful out of the gates, I don't see them getting great fan support in a few years.

[WaukeeBlues]

I don't see how they're any worse than Miami. In most ways Miami is way worse than Vegas. At least Vegas is the entertainment capital of the world with a lot of snowbirds.

The long story short is that the NHL would not have approved this deal if they hadn't seen plenty enough evidence to truly feel this thing was feasible.

I think it's also worth repeating that a lot of these more expensive seats and suites, I'm sure, are going to be scooped by the local casino/resorts or other entertainment venues as packages.

I guess I'm in the minority here but I think it'll be fine.

[ecbm]

I don't see how they're any worse than Miami.

Exactly-Miami, where there were empty seats during playoff games of a team whose qualification was a miracle and hadn't seen the post-season in years and has only seen it 3 times in the last 18 years.

The long story short is that the NHL would not have approved this deal if they hadn't seen plenty enough evidence to truly feel this thing was feasible.

You have far more faith in the NHL than me. Their motives aren't the same as fans. The way I see it, they've basically decided that the league can prop up another unprofitable team whose existence won't grow the game at all because their bosses-the owners-want some easy cash. Prove me wrong, NHL.

[WaukeeBlues]

I don't see how they're any worse than Miami.

Exactly-Miami, where there were empty seats during playoff games of a team whose qualification was a miracle and hadn't seen the post-season in years and has only seen it 3 times in the last 18 years.

The long story short is that the NHL would not have approved this deal if they hadn't seen plenty enough evidence to truly feel this thing was feasible.

You have far more faith in the NHL than me. Their motives aren't the same as fans. The way I see it, they've basically decided that the league can prop up another unprofitable team whose existence won't grow the game at all because their bosses-the owners-want some easy cash. Prove me wrong, NHL.

Bettman, for whatever else he is, is a businessman first. For many of us hockey fans that pisses us off because it shows itself in how he runs the league. He's been a clear proponent of putting teams in "non-traditional" markets to try and grow the sport to be on a footing with the likes of the NBA, NFL, and MLB. Obviously, it's been with mixed reviews, most notably in Arizona and Miami. But its not for lack of effort on his part.

Many people, including myself to an extent, haven't liked his efforts because it often goes against the die-hard hockey fan grain. Bettman is not a hockey guy. I think if he honestly told you Bettman would acknowledge the Atlanta to Winnipeg move as a failure and a situation that got out of his control. Yet I think for most of us as hockey fans we got a nostalgiac giddiness at seeing the team go back to Winnipeg. Nothing was more telling than Bettman's veiled warning of "now you better sell out the building every night because there's only 15,000 seats."

Bettman has obviously shown he's willing to be (recklessly?) aggressive in his efforts to grow the sport. To a certain point I don't fault him. The problem is most of these areas he's pushed don't really have a desire to have hockey pushed on them. But it defies logic to me that the NHL would intentionally place a team in an area on the belief that it would be unprofitable.

[abc789987]

Apperently they sold some 14,000 season tickets. That can't be full 41 game packages, though? Curious how they counted those numbers. I expect them to be full for first half of the year then just go down from there...