GDT #53: 2/2/16 | 7:00PM CST | @ Predators | FSMW/KMOX

[cprice12]

Sluggish start for the Blues, but they had the better of the play in the 2nd and 3rd periods by far.

That was a huge regulation win vs. a team that is trying to catch us in the standings. A 4 pt. game.

Brouwer had a pretty crappy game (made some bad passes, mishandled a few pucks in key situations)...and then he gets credited with the game winner. Figures.

Fantastic finish.

Elliott was awesome yet again. And some folks were advocating trading him at some point. Silly.

[glen a richter]

Good win, but dang if this team doesn't really, really need Schwartz back. Fresh back from the break and that's all the offense they can muster?

[dmiles2186]

Glad we got the win but the number of games this team has gone without scoring in at least the first 30 mins keeps rising. It feels like almost every game you might as well sit back and wait until the back half of the game for the Blues to score. It's maddening. I shouldn't be as upset with this team as I am, but every game leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth. Yeah, they got the win last night, but they played like crap for a good portion of the game.

[ecbm]

Elliott was awesome yet again. And some folks were advocating trading him at some point. Silly.

I still do. His great play and high upside should bring a very good return for a team that doesn't currently have a lot on the farm at forward. See, here's what isn't silly: the Blues have two very good goalies right now. Only one can play each night. It's completely logical to keep the younger & cheaper of the two. Running sports teams isn't so sentimental anymore, pretty much due to the cap. Elliott's great and I would have no problem with him as the starter but I do think it would be the wrong choice. He plays like this for a full season next year, he's asking for $5M per. How do you fit that? Let Shatty walk? It's a question that has to be answered.

Berglund = a heavier game? Give me whatever you are smoking/taking please.Fabbri should be in Pajaarvi's slot, period. Pajaarvi has Jamal Mayers hands.Yet some morons, not here, still think Drouin would fit in St Louis, somehow.The "1st line" is essentially all centers - Berglund, Steen, and Backes. I don't get playing Steen at C when the Blues have so many centers and Steen has done so well when playing LW. If this is the plan to generate more scoring the staff came up with over 9 days off, I don't get it. Will have to watch and see.

Fair enough about Berglund but he is a bigger body and Hitchcock said the change was to get more "hunt on the puck"-which sounds to me precisely like saying "heavier game" without having to use that phrase. But I digress. Yeah, the line combos make no sense. I'd really like to see one of Hitch's backers argue that that's something other than throwing shit at a wall and seeing if it sticks. Hey, you know who's actually a center? Robby Fabbri! But nope, can't be cutting into the TOI of legends like Pajaarvi, Berglund and Brouwer. A team with Fabbri, Backes, Stastny and Lehtera is resorting to having Kyle Brodziak and Alexander Steen center 50% of its lines. You'd think a veteran coach like Hitchcock wouldn't piss his pants over the scoring issues or be led around by the media or stats guys on it. If Schwartz had been playing and scoring at the same clip as last season, the Blues would sit at 14th in goals per game and .08 goals per game off of 9th. Put him out to pasture already!

[theohall]

Berglund actually played well, so bad on me, this time.

So they are trying to get Tarasenko going after having his worst goal scoring month this season. I know, let's put him on a line with Stastny (ok, at least he can be creative) and, hmmm.... who else? I KNOW! Paajarvi. He really works hard.

Yeah, he really works hard at accomplishing nothing and never, ever setting anyone else up. It's like he never even looks to pass in the offensive zone. Result - 0 shots on goal for the teams leading goal scorer. Nice line combo, morons!!

This won't work against teams which actually score goals.

[cprice12]

Elliott was awesome yet again. And some folks were advocating trading him at some point. Silly.

I still do. His great play and high upside should bring a very good return for a team that doesn't currently have a lot on the farm at forward. See, here's what isn't silly: the Blues have two very good goalies right now. Only one can play each night. It's completely logical to keep the younger & cheaper of the two. Running sports teams isn't so sentimental anymore, pretty much due to the cap. Elliott's great and I would have no problem with him as the starter but I do think it would be the wrong choice. He plays like this for a full season next year, he's asking for $5M per. How do you fit that? Let Shatty walk? It's a question that has to be answered.

Disagree for two reasons...
1) Elliott has been great, but I think you are overvaluing what he could bring in a trade. Goalies don't tend to bring much in trades unless they are upper echelon with a cup or two. And those kinds of guys don't usually get moved. He wouldn't bring in what we need up front. He is far more valuable on our roster than what he could bring in a trade. Elliott would not bring in an elite first line playmaker or goal scorer, so no thanks. When goalies get moved, the return is usually underwhelming.

2) If we did move Elliott and Allen got hurt in the playoffs, we'd have Copley or Binnington as our guy. No offense to them, but that's not a scenario I want to see vs. a team like Chicago in the playoffs. Our goal is the cup this year, having a backup with next to zero NHL experience is a pretty awful plan. Getting rid of Elliott isn't something you do unless you have a great option to replace him...and right now we don't have that. We'd have to acquire a veteran backup to replace Elliott, which is silly since we already have Elliott. Going with Allen as the #1 and Copley or Binnington as your backup means your are walking a tight rope without a net in exchange for what might be a marginally better offense if we pick up someone of value in a trade.

But let's look at who might be interested in Elliott. We won't be trading him inside the division, so that eliminates Winnipeg.

Other teams interest in Elliott...

Carolina? Probably. Eric Staal? It would have to be at the deadline, as he makes $9.5 million and the Canes may have to eat some salary for that to work for us...and is a UFA next year.

Toronto? Probably. Maybe I'd like Komarov? But eh. He doesn't really do it for me.

Buffalo? Probably. But there isn't much there I would think would help us that would could legitimately get or want for Elliott.

Calgary? Probably. Hudler is intriguing. Had a real good year last year...but no so much this year. I think you could make that work somehow. But would he make us that much better? Maybe a little.

Everyone else is either committed to their #1 financially, or they are very happy with what they have already.

I just don't see a deal for Elliott being out there that makes us substantially better to warrant the risk of going into the playoffs with a backup with no NHL experience and a #1 with relatively limited NHL experience when the goal is to win a cup.

[APOD]

Elliott was awesome yet again. And some folks were advocating trading him at some point. Silly.

I still do. His great play and high upside should bring a very good return for a team that doesn't currently have a lot on the farm at forward. See, here's what isn't silly: the Blues have two very good goalies right now. Only one can play each night. It's completely logical to keep the younger & cheaper of the two. Running sports teams isn't so sentimental anymore, pretty much due to the cap. Elliott's great and I would have no problem with him as the starter but I do think it would be the wrong choice. He plays like this for a full season next year, he's asking for $5M per. How do you fit that? Let Shatty walk? It's a question that has to be answered.

You don't think Allen will command good money as a young starter. I think Allen will want more than Elliott, I think Elliott just wants stability only thing we got on Allen is he is a RFA.

Personally if we flop in the playoffs again, I would rather trade Allen this summer and we already know Shatty is gone this summer if not by the end of this month.

16/17 Blues- Elliott/Binns and Copley split time as back up unless there is a clear better of the two
16/17 Wolves- Husso/Binns and Copley

17/18 Blues- Elliott/Husso(age 22)
17/18 Wolves- Oplika/Binns or Copley(whoever we didn't trade)

Eventually Husso will be the starter here and Elliott will move on

[ecbm]

Elliott has been great, but I think you are overvaluing what he could bring in a trade. Goalies don't tend to bring much in trades unless they are upper echelon with a cup or two.

You're overlooking the cap hit, as many NHL fans still do. Ondre Pavelec's cap hit is $2M higher than Elliot's. There'd be a market for him. True of Allen as well-but he's still a few years away from being the monkey wrench in the Blues' cap plans that Elliott will be after next season.

If we did move Elliott and Allen got hurt in the playoffs, we'd have Copley or Binnington as our guy.

Resource management wouldn't be an actual skill if risks didn't have to be taken. The Canadiens look a shell of the team they were since Price went down. Should they sign a backup for $3M next season and forgo something else? For a guy who will only play in fairly rare circumstances? I don't think that's a justifiable decision.

I just don't see a deal for Elliott being out there that makes us substantially better to warrant the risk

That's a fair point and if true then he should just be retained until his contract runs down and sent on his way to a payday in FA with sincere thanks for his efforts. I do think you're failing to be creative in considering partners. Are you considering package deals? I don't think you are. Also, as far as return I'd prefer a draft pick and clearing the cap space and letting Husso have a crack at the backup job. He's been fantastic in Finland.

You don't think Allen will command good money as a young starter.

Nobody "commands" anything until they're UFA or approaching it.

we already know Shatty is gone this summer if not by the end of this month.

IF this decision is actually taken, it will seal my conclusion that this club will have no serious success under the current coaching/front office regime. He's the second-best player on this club. I don't give two shits how many minutes Hitch still wrongly gives Petro & Bouwmeester.

[cprice12]

Elliott has been great, but I think you are overvaluing what he could bring in a trade. Goalies don't tend to bring much in trades unless they are upper echelon with a cup or two.

You're overlooking the cap hit, as many NHL fans still do. Ondre Pavelec's cap hit is $2M higher than Elliot's. There'd be a market for him. True of Allen as well-but he's still a few years away from being the monkey wrench in the Blues' cap plans that Elliott will be after next season.

I'm not overlooking the cap hit at all.
He's not being traded in the division...so Winnipeg is out.
And I'm not saying some teams wouldn't want him, but what they would offer wouldn't be enough for me to part with him.
And every other team I didn't list as a possible trade partner is either financially committed to their existing goaltending, or really like what they have, or both.

You tell me what team that isn't in my short list above, would realistically want Elliott enough over what they currently have to make a move and trade something that is currently an asset, to get him.

There just aren't many places he can realistically go, and get something that will help us substantially.

If we did move Elliott and Allen got hurt in the playoffs, we'd have Copley or Binnington as our guy.

Resource management wouldn't be an actual skill if risks didn't have to be taken. The Canadiens look a shell of the team they were since Price went down. Should they sign a backup for $3M next season and forgo something else? For a guy who will only play in fairly rare circumstances? I don't think that's a justifiable decision.

If the Canadiens don't turn it around, they'll miss the playoffs. Hell, they are already a handful of points out of it. So, yes. They need to look at upgrading their backup goaltending. Signing a guy for $3 million or acquiring someone else would likely be a priority. You just can't have a shitty backup goaltender and expect to be a legit cup contender. Because all it takes is one little thing to happen to your goalie, and your entire season is trashed...which is exactly what is happening in Montreal and would quite possibly be happening to us right now if we didn't have Elliott and we had Binnington or Copley playing now. Elliott has kind of saved our season...and likely saved some guys from being traded, at least for the time being. We could easily be where Montreal is right now if not for our quality "backup" goalie.

I just don't see a deal for Elliott being out there that makes us substantially better to warrant the risk

That's a fair point and if true then he should just be retained until his contract runs down and sent on his way to a payday in FA with sincere thanks for his efforts. I do think you're failing to be creative in considering partners. Are you considering package deals? I don't think you are. Also, as far as return I'd prefer a draft pick and clearing the cap space and letting Husso have a crack at the backup job. He's been fantastic in Finland.

The return I want is an impact roster player. And the teams that would likely be interested in Elliott don't have a lot to offer as far as playmaking centers go.
I'd be curious about Hudler and maybe Staal. And a package deal is fine...but we'd have to then go get a backup goalie again...because it's very doubtful this orgnization would go into the playoffs with Copley or Binnington as our backup. That just isn't going to happen, especially with Allen being hurt once already this year.
Doing that would be horribly irresponsible. We don't score enough to run and gun and outscore a team to overcome poor goaltending. If we had a high flying offense, I'd be more inclined to deal a backup if we needed help elsewhere or needed to clear cap space. But we don't...so I think that's a bad idea.

we already know Shatty is gone this summer if not by the end of this month.

IF this decision is actually taken, it will seal my conclusion that this club will have no serious success under the current coaching/front office regime. He's the second-best player on this club. I don't give two shits how many minutes Hitch still wrongly gives Petro & Bouwmeester.

We already know Shatty is gone this summer? Says who?
I think a lot depends on how for we go in the playoffs and what kind of an offer we get for him. But he isn't gone just to get rid of him. People who say we need to clear cap space just aren't looking at all of the options we have to do so.
Shattenkirk isn't going to be dealt just to be dealt. That would be stupid.

[theohall]

What about the Canadiens? They now realize they need a quality backup netminder and with no date for Price's return, still, they might be willing to deal.

Of course, the Blues won't deal Elliott unless Allen is back 100% which might not be until after the deadline.

FWIW, I wouldn't trade Elliott, either.

[glen a richter]

This teams goaltending future lies in Husso and Opilka. It is what it is. I have no problem with trading Elliott at the draft. Given Allen's present situation, I'm reluctant to trade Eliott this season, but the fact is Army got him off a scrap heap and he'll get the next backup off a scrap heap too, but cheaper.

[Oaklandblue]

Here is where the front office has screwed the pooch and seriously botched trade value: By not picking and sticking with a starter, they have ran two netminders for limited periods of time over the past 3-5 years (Yes, we have gone that long without a "starting" netminder). At best another team is going to view them as two backups. Prove them wrong, has either played a majority of games in a season? Hell, in any season?

~ No.

Does anyone have any idea what their numbers would be if they did?

~ They could only assume.

What do we know for fact?

~ That they both play very limited amounts of games per season on a "top tier" team.

Would they be good if they played for a worse team or is their play the result of sound d and decent offense?

~ Good question.

Based on two factors - Their limited games per season and the average standing of this team in the last 3-5 (3rd/4th in the Conference), they'd get what a backup netminder would get, so expect picks, a journeyman or maybe a prospect, because that's all they are worth. IF the front office wants to trade Elliott, he needs to play every. Single. Game. Provided he continues being on Beast Mode, a trade can be made, but it'll be for a little better than what I just mentioned or a team might send something really decent across that would amount to a rental.

And that's all there is to it.


And FWIW, haven't we learned by now that trading Ells is suicide? We have gone through Halak and Miller and both times Ells has been the better netminder. Now we're on to Jake Allen and he's injured and who is carrying the load? And you want to trade him?

Bottom line, we have NO backup plan in the works. We got lucky getting Ells and got screwed trading off Bishop; let's not make the later mistake again, please? There are other players we can ship off to get help now, and Goaltending is NOT a position we need assistance with.

[Oaklandblue]

This teams goaltending future lies in Husso and Opilka. It is what it is. I have no problem with trading Elliott at the draft. Given Allen's present situation, I'm reluctant to trade Eliott this season, but the fact is Army got him off a scrap heap and he'll get the next backup off a scrap heap too, but cheaper.

I have this funny feeling that Brian Elliott is going to outlast every single goaltending prospect we got not named Copley and Husso. I would seriously focus attention on things we don't have and desperately need for our puzzle to work - like a #1 Centre.

[Oaklandblue]

we already know Shatty is gone this summer if not by the end of this month.

IF this decision is actually taken, it will seal my conclusion that this club will have no serious success under the current coaching/front office regime. He's the second-best player on this club. I don't give two shits how many minutes Hitch still wrongly gives Petro & Bouwmeester.

Agreed. I'd trade Pie and Boomer for firepower and re-sign Shatt. We have so much D depth downstairs and Parayko is turning out to be a Beast. We'll be ok.

[abc789987]

Anyone else see that stat for our record going into the 3rd with the games tied? It was 11-2-0 if I remember correctly... too lazy to look it up but is that better than when we have the lead?

*after some looking that must have been a home only stat... carry on. nothing to see here.

[APOD]

we already know Shatty is gone this summer if not by the end of this month.

IF this decision is actually taken, it will seal my conclusion that this club will have no serious success under the current coaching/front office regime. He's the second-best player on this club. I don't give two shits how many minutes Hitch still wrongly gives Petro & Bouwmeester.

Agreed. I'd trade Pie and Boomer for firepower and re-sign Shatt. We have so much D depth downstairs and Parayko is turning out to be a Beast. We'll be ok.

I could be very wrong, but it just sounds more and more that we will be moving a top D-man and as much as I want that to be Bouw. Shatty has the higher up side and we are very deep in defense. Moving Shatty for scoring up front or moving him to try and draft in the top 10 just makes sense for me. Pietrangelo could easily be the same way but between pie and shatty it just seems that the club wants to stick with Pie.

This teams goaltending future lies in Husso and Opilka. It is what it is. I have no problem with trading Elliott at the draft. Given Allen's present situation, I'm reluctant to trade Eliott this season, but the fact is Army got him off a scrap heap and he'll get the next backup off a scrap heap too, but cheaper.

I have this funny feeling that Brian Elliott is going to outlast every single goaltending prospect we got not named Copley and Husso. I would seriously focus attention on things we don't have and desperately need for our puzzle to work - like a #1 Centre.

This is my point for trading Allen and focusing on getting Husso ready.

I really think Elliott can keep us in good shape while we focus on Husso who will be 21 this year. Allen will be 26 in August, Elliott will be 31 this year. Husso needs to be brought to the AHL next year and he could start as our back up by the age of 23-24 all while Elliott is just hitting mid thirtys at that point.


I see the point in us not establishing him as the starter but I still think we could get a high 1st rounder or a 2nd and prospect/ low value player

Last years draft
Martin Jones 1st round 15th forward prospect
Robin Lehner 1st round 21st
Cam Talbot 2nd round 57th, third round 79th

Maybe I'm over valuing guys like Allen and Shatty, but if we flop out in the playoffs again I have no problem moving them to get into the draft. Edmonton needs D and are on pace to have the 3-5 draft spot(lottery pending).(shatty and our first probably don't get us there alone but maybe)

Vancouver, Philly and Toronto could have a need/want for Allen

Trade a pick for a right handed D man(chris wideman?) to fill in for Shatty unless or until Schmaltz is ready.

Pick up a LW like Tkachuk, Nylander, or C Pierre-Luc Dubois in the top 10

If we flop out, might as well move out some of the old guys and bring in fresh meat and add prospects(not talking rebuild)

I probably play too much NHL16 so I apologize if none of this is realistic lol.

[theohall]

Trade a pick for a right handed D man(chris wideman?) to fill in for Shatty unless or until Schmaltz is ready.

The last thing we need is another right-handed D-man. The team is weak on the current roster with left side D. Bouwmeester, Gunnarson, and Edmundson are the lefties. Everyone else is right - Pie, Shatty, Parayko, Bortuzzo.

Good news is there are good prospects, at least on of which, should crack the roster as a better left-handed D than either Edmundson or Gunnarson. So trading for D now - we want left guys. Problem is there aren't enough of them available that would be worth trading for.

[ecbm]

If the Canadiens don't turn it around, they'll miss the playoffs. Hell, they are already a handful of points out of it. So, yes.

That would be a tremendous waste of limited resources based on fear. I just can't get down with that.

The return I want is an impact roster player.

Why? Where does the Blues roster really have need? I think you have to take that opportunity to clear cap space or the Blues are going to find themselves in a real problem in a couple of years.

Prove them wrong, has either played a majority of games in a season? Hell, in any season?

~ No.

Elliott started 45 games in 14-15. Allen was well on his way to starting 60-ish games this season. He could still get 50. Meanwhile, Cam Talbot was traded for two picks as a 27 year-old with 53 total starts over two seasons. The Wild gave up a 3rd for Dubnyk whose history was far spottier than Elliott's. If the Blues don't trade Elliott it's because they don't want to or don't feel like they weren't made a good offer. There absolutely is a market for him.

I could be very wrong, but it just sounds more and more that we will be moving a top D-man and as much as I want that to be Bouw. Shatty has the higher up side and we are very deep in defense. Moving Shatty for scoring up front or moving him to try and draft in the top 10 just makes sense for me.

Just because you have depth in an area doesn't mean you trade the best player you have in that area. Bouwmeester is done as a top-tier defensemen and I don't see Petro getting many Norris votes any time soon. If we trade Shatty and Parayko has any sort of sophomore slump then the defense craters.

Again, he's the second most important player on the team for me and one of a handful of untouchables along with Tank, Schwartz, Fabbri and Parayko.

As for firepower-the Blues have six or seven (depends on how you feel about Fabbri & Brouwer) forwards who are 20-30 goal scorers plus Petro and Parayko on D. The problem is the coaching/system. If they do the sort of dumbass overhaul I'm reading about that involves trading Shattenkirk and carrying on with the fantasy that Petro is a franchise defenseman and letting Hitch continue to try to coach this squad into 1999-I won't have to argue any more because the results will prove me correct.

[glen a richter]

Define "impact player". I don't want a guy who will cost an arm and a leg. I want an Okposo type. I also want Bouwmeester out, and also the other obvious candidates: Berglund, Ott... bye.

[cprice12]

If the Canadiens don't turn it around, they'll miss the playoffs. Hell, they are already a handful of points out of it. So, yes.

That would be a tremendous waste of limited resources based on fear. I just can't get down with that.

Montreal's game plan this year was to keep their "tremendous resources" and go with lesser backup goaltending and guess what? They are in real danger of missing the playoffs because their #1 got hurt (and isn't coming back anytime soon) and he was their whole team. He has been out for a substantial period of time now and they can't seem to win without him. They currently sit 13th in the East after getting off to the best start in franchise history. It has been a historic collapse, primarily because they lost their #1 goalie.

Montreal's game plan...the one that you seem to think is a better way to go than what the Blues are doing, has proven to be catastrophic.

Sure, it's fine if your #1 goalie stays healthy...but that's a big gamble. And I've said this for a while now, if you want to be a serious cup contender, you damn well better have a backup that can perform because you might need him at some point.

If not for Elliott, we'd be down with Minnesota and Anaheim fighting for a playoff spot...that's guaranteed. This season, like Monteal, goaltending has gotten us to where we are. But unlike Montreal, we have a quality backup, or 1B option.

This is an odd time for you to take that stance considering the Blues and Montreal both suffered injuries to their #1's, who were playing very well a the time and carrying the team. The Blues have flat out proven it pays to have a backup goalie who can step in and play well when needed...especially since our offense isn't going to win us any 6-5 games.

The return I want is an impact roster player.

Why? Where does the Blues roster really have need? I think you have to take that opportunity to clear cap space or the Blues are going to find themselves in a real problem in a couple of years.

Where do we have a need? Seriously?
Oh, I dunno...how about a #1 center? How about another 25-30 goal scorer? We need offense...badly. And Schwartz should help with that, but he's still not the #1 center we've been seeking. Lehtera certainly isn't that guy. If we do go after someone at the deadline, it should be a guy who can create some offense.

Why in the hell would a cup contender dump a key player just to clear cap space at the deadline?
You think it's wise to trade Elliott now so we can address cap concerns 2 years from now?
I don't get that at all.
If trading Elliott is the plan to clear cap space in the future, you don't do it now, you do it in the offseason.
And there are far, far better ways to clear cap space anyway.

We have a few UFA's this offseason:
- Backes - $4.5 million cap hit
- Brouwer - $3.67
- Ott - $2.6
- Upshall - $700k
- Gunnarson - $3.45
That's $15 million that they have to play with.

And here are the UFA's two offseasons from now:
- Steen - $5.8
- Berglund - $3.7
- Shattenkirk - $4.25
- Bortuzzo - $1.05
- Elliott - $2.7
That's another $17.5 million.

If they currently have concerns for the salary cap two years from now (they don't), they have all kinds of time and money to play with between now and then. It can be addressed in the offseason or next offseason.

The cap will change quite a bit based on what we decide to do with Backes, Brouwer and our other UFA's this offseason. Clearing $2.5 million now in preparation for two years from now doesn't make any sense.