The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

Post by cardsfan04 »

glen a richter wrote:Just throwing this out there, and don't crucify me for it, but since we can probably count on the guys mentioned earlier (Fabbri, Barbashev, Lindbohm, Vanelli, Schmaltz, etc...) being on the team sooner than later and having to make room for them one way or the other, would Shattenkirk+Berglund+Jaskin be sufficient to get the #1 or #2? Of course there's a reason I'm not an NHL gm and I'm probably talking out my ass here, but ample money is saved to retain Tarasenko (and Allen)--in conjunction with also letting Jax and Leopold walk--and we net either McDavid or Eichel who both would look good in the note and step in right away. I'm afraid we're stuck with Ott, so trading him for anything short of a bad of dented pucks is probably out of the question. Could be an overpay if Jaskin ends up really good, but then again 1 and 2 in this years draft are both being compared to Crosby and, as much as we love to rag on him, admit it: we'd all love a guy like Crosby on the Blues.
I'm not sure what the going rate would be for a top 2 pick, but I suspect there isn't one this year. If the guys coming out are supposed to be Crosby-esque, the GMs of those franchises would be ran out of town if they traded the pick that would have landed one of them.

I also would just be generally hesitant to do that anyway. We have a really good thing going right now. I'd be hesitant to rock the boat so drastically with one move.
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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

Post by STLADOGG »

cardsfan04 wrote:
glen a richter wrote:Just throwing this out there, and don't crucify me for it, but since we can probably count on the guys mentioned earlier (Fabbri, Barbashev, Lindbohm, Vanelli, Schmaltz, etc...) being on the team sooner than later and having to make room for them one way or the other, would Shattenkirk+Berglund+Jaskin be sufficient to get the #1 or #2? Of course there's a reason I'm not an NHL gm and I'm probably talking out my ass here, but ample money is saved to retain Tarasenko (and Allen)--in conjunction with also letting Jax and Leopold walk--and we net either McDavid or Eichel who both would look good in the note and step in right away. I'm afraid we're stuck with Ott, so trading him for anything short of a bad of dented pucks is probably out of the question. Could be an overpay if Jaskin ends up really good, but then again 1 and 2 in this years draft are both being compared to Crosby and, as much as we love to rag on him, admit it: we'd all love a guy like Crosby on the Blues.
I'm not sure what the going rate would be for a top 2 pick, but I suspect there isn't one this year. If the guys coming out are supposed to be Crosby-esque, the GMs of those franchises would be ran out of town if they traded the pick that would have landed one of them.

I also would just be generally hesitant to do that anyway. We have a really good thing going right now. I'd be hesitant to rock the boat so drastically with one move.
Probably like a Stastny or a Tarasenko.
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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

Post by not_a_wings_fan »

I'd give up a Stastny for the #1 pick in this years draft.

He's a great piece, but if that keeps our D together and keeps Tank, I am all for dumping him at the draft.
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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

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Maybe I expect it would cost more than it would, but I was thinking more along the lines of either Tarasenko or Schwartz plus Oshie plus Fabbri plus our 1st round pick. I think their asking price would likely be so high that it would be a non-starter, not even worth countering.
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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

Post by not_a_wings_fan »

Obviously they wouldn't take Stastny straight up, but the other pieces wouldn't be what you mentioned, lol... they're not high.
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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

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not_a_wings_fan wrote:Obviously they wouldn't take Stastny straight up, but the other pieces wouldn't be what you mentioned, lol... they're not high.
For the biggest prospect since Crosby? What do you think it would have taken to get Crosby from the Penguins when he was a rookie? I think it would have taken a boatload. Maybe not as much as I'm saying. I dunno, but I doubt they're even fielding offers.
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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

Post by glen a richter »

dmiles2186 wrote:
ecbm wrote:Hitch and Army have absolutely no laurels to rest on here. The cup they won in Dallas 16 seasons ago means nothing to this Blues fan.
Hitch and Army took a team that was a middling group competing for a 6-7-8 seed and turned them into a contender that is in the top 5-6 NHL teams every year. Not to mention we're having conversations about a giant, beautiful silver trophy. They elevated this team to that. You're not giving them enough credit for turning things around. The moment Hitch took over, this team went from basically a .500 team (7-8-0, if I recall) to the #2 seed in the West by year's end. They've been in the upper half of the conference ever since.

You are so critical of them both and that's fine. But if we can both of them, who is out there, better than them, waiting to replace them? That's the key question that people calling for jobs never ask. Coaches and GM's with Cups on their resume aren't usually just sitting around, they're usually employed.
Not suggesting we can Hitch, but to answer the first part of your question regarding which coach is available, that's easy. Bylsma.
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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

Post by not_a_wings_fan »

cardsfan04 wrote:
not_a_wings_fan wrote:Obviously they wouldn't take Stastny straight up, but the other pieces wouldn't be what you mentioned, lol... they're not high.
For the biggest prospect since Crosby? What do you think it would have taken to get Crosby from the Penguins when he was a rookie? I think it would have taken a boatload. Maybe not as much as I'm saying. I dunno, but I doubt they're even fielding offers.
Make all the comparisons you want, but every prospect is Daigle until they aren't .

It's going to come down to who actually has the pick, what their philosophy is, where they are financially, and a number of other factors.

It may, as you suggested, be way too steep to actually get the pick. But a struggling team would have to take a hard look at a #2/#1 center, plus a stud D man, and another pick. They'd be nuts not to.
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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

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glen a richter wrote:Just throwing this out there, and don't crucify me for it, but since we can probably count on the guys mentioned earlier (Fabbri, Barbashev, Lindbohm, Vanelli, Schmaltz, etc...) being on the team sooner than later and having to make room for them one way or the other, would Shattenkirk+Berglund+Jaskin be sufficient to get the #1 or #2? Of course there's a reason I'm not an NHL gm and I'm probably talking out my ass here, but ample money is saved to retain Tarasenko (and Allen)--in conjunction with also letting Jax and Leopold walk--and we net either McDavid or Eichel who both would look good in the note and step in right away. I'm afraid we're stuck with Ott, so trading him for anything short of a bad of dented pucks is probably out of the question. Could be an overpay if Jaskin ends up really good, but then again 1 and 2 in this years draft are both being compared to Crosby and, as much as we love to rag on him, admit it: we'd all love a guy like Crosby on the Blues.
I don't think either of the top 2 picks are going to come to us for anything that doesn't include Tarasenko, Schwartz or Pie. I realize that a draft pick doesn't equate to automatic superstar status, but potential alone is still worth a lot, especially potential that is described using words like "Crosby".
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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

Post by glen a richter »

I also forgot about pending RFA Ian Cole. He's not in the same ballpark as Tarasenko but he won't come free either. Though I don't think he'll be on the team much more than a couple more years solely because of the depth at d, I also think he's very underrated.

It does stand to reason they'd trade him though because I did name my son after him. It was totally coincidental but still, my track record would indicate Cole won't be in the note a whole lot longer.
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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

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In the interest of looking ahead to which prospects are poised to make an impression in the next few seasons, I was looking at the hockeysfuture ranking and actually came up a bit surprised. I had no idea any outlet had Jordan Binnington ranked ahead of Jake Allen but there he is, sitting #1 to Allen's #2. Assuming Ells is gone eventually, and Allen and Binnington both pan out well, they'll be back to 1A and 1B again.

We do have a wealth of riches in the pipeline, which is a nice change over some recent history. But to make room for them, bodies have to be moved anyway. It's not even just a matter of the salary cap and saving money for paying Vova, it's a matter of roster space in general.
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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

Post by not_a_wings_fan »

I would think you would be seeing Bouw, Oshie, Steen, Backes, and others being moved out in the next 2-4 years. There's just too much talent coming and those guys are aging. If there are better producers at their positions, they will be gone for cheaper options.
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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

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Bouw presents an interesting situation. When they traded for him, who in their right mind expected him to stay? We all thought he was a playoff rental and then were shocked to see him re-sign. What you get with him is durability. His offensive numbers are down, and with durability comes the risk of wear and tear sooner than later. This isn't a passive sport where you can play 10000 games in a row and not feel it the next morning.

I think I'll backtrack on my suggestion of dumping Shattenkirk to clear cap space and dump Bouw instead. Sell him before he breaks down.

Also on the topic of prospects, see Barbashev's numbers thus far this season? Trade Ott for a rented Puck and get Barbashev in here now.
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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

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I was thinking along those lines with Bouwmeester too. 5 years from now, Shatty's going to be in his prime. Bouwmeester will be just about done. I'd rather have Shatty than Bouwmeester for that reason. The breaking down is possibly a part of that too, declining because of age if for no other reason.

I think it's naive to think we can keep everybody we have forever, but I'm not ready to start shipping people out yet either. There will definitely be some turnover, but hopefully it's gradual, not abrupt.
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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

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The Blues salary currently includes at least $12M of outright dreck. No way there should be any consideration of moving core guys until that is cleared or becomes an insurmountable obstacle to re-signing #91/17.

As for the #1 pick? You don't have to go to the nuclear option, Daigle, to point out how foolish that might be. Remember the most can't-miss prospect of the last generation? Remember how Quebec got Forsberg and a bunch of other guys for him and then Forsberg became the best player in the league and Quebec/Colorado won a couple cups while Philly spun their wheels? Yeah, I do too.
dmiles2186 wrote:Hitch and Army took a team that was a middling group competing for a 6-7-8 seed and turned them into a contender that is in the top 5-6 NHL teams every year. Not to mention we're having conversations about a giant, beautiful silver trophy. They elevated this team to that. You're not giving them enough credit for turning things around. The moment Hitch took over, this team went from basically a .500 team (7-8-0, if I recall) to the #2 seed in the West by year's end. They've been in the upper half of the conference ever since.

You are so critical of them both and that's fine. But if we can both of them, who is out there, better than them, waiting to replace them? That's the key question that people calling for jobs never ask. Coaches and GM's with Cups on their resume aren't usually just sitting around, they're usually employed.
I suppose I'm not effusive about it but yes, of course, I agree that Hitch & Army have done a very good job here. What they did in terms of turning around results is brilliant. But the personnel they inherited was already one of the most talented groups in the league. They were also on the cusp of making the playoffs and that was the expectation. Payne was fired precisely because another losing season with that squad full of high draft picks was not going to be tolerated. At this point, they aren't charge of a club that's been among the league's worst for years. And they've been allowed to mold the roster to their preferences. The task for them is no longer to do a very good job. It's to produce a level of results commensurate with the team's talent and the owner's investment. They need to make a deep playoff run at least for me to judge them successful this season. I will wait to judge them until the end-that's what's making this season really hard to watch for me. Feels like the Blues are a lock for the playoffs and nothing matters that much until we get there.

As for other options-that's not for me to decide or know. I can't make the Blues' decisions for them. But I won't believe anyone from the organization if we go out in the 1st round again and they tell me yeah, this is good enough.

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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

Post by ViPeRx007 »

glen a richter wrote:Bouw presents an interesting situation. When they traded for him, who in their right mind expected him to stay? We all thought he was a playoff rental and then were shocked to see him re-sign. What you get with him is durability. His offensive numbers are down, and with durability comes the risk of wear and tear sooner than later. This isn't a passive sport where you can play 10000 games in a row and not feel it the next morning.

I think I'll backtrack on my suggestion of dumping Shattenkirk to clear cap space and dump Bouw instead. Sell him before he breaks down.

Also on the topic of prospects, see Barbashev's numbers thus far this season? Trade Ott for a rented Puck and get Barbashev in here now.
Agreed regarding Bouw, but I guess it also depends on trades, etc. I mean, we basically traded Johnson for Shattenkirk and Stewart (this was pre-floater Stewart when he actually played well) and that was a great trade for us at the time. If we can do the same thing again with Shattenkirk and get a cheaper version of him, I think you probably consider that. I'd still rather they did something with Bouw instead, but you have to work with what other clubs offer. It's not like making video game trades, unfortunately.

What is Barbashev's status in regards to being able to join the team? Isn't it the same as Fabbri where he has to stay on his minor club for the duration of their season before he can jump up?

I agree that it would seem swapping him out for Ott would be an upgrade but I think you have to be careful from a development standpoint. He's still only 18 years old. He's doing well (and had a 6 point night a few days ago) but you don't want to mess that up. I know some guys can do just fine in the NHL at that age, and I think he probably could be one of them. It would just be different if we were doing poorly right now.
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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

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Rented Puck? Stupid autocorrect. Meant dented puck.
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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

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The fact that you guys are honestly arguing about the Blues possibly trading for the top 1 or 2 picks in this years draft is... I can't even... :facepalm:

No offense but not worthy of a rational response.
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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

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WaukeeBlues wrote:The fact that you guys are honestly arguing about the Blues possibly trading for the top 1 or 2 picks in this years draft is... I can't even... :facepalm:

No offense but not worthy of a rational response.
Obviously this a hypothetical situation, rooted in a very serious short and long term situation.

Facts are some big contracts will come due soon, namely Tarasenko this offseason and then Schwartz and Lehtera next offseason. Lost in all this is that the other 2/3rds of that line aren't exactly locked up on 8 year deals and none of them will come cheap next time around.

Also factual is that there are guys who are getting older and a deep pipeline. I mean honestly, we have a frikkin Russian center who's pacing about 2 points per game, granted at a significantly lower level of competition but undeniably talented. To even suggest that the roster, as it stands today, will be the roster for the next 5 or 6 or 7 years is insane. Financially, it's unsustainable regardless of how much money the team makes or how many Cups they win because Cups don't make the cap go higher. In terms of roster space, it's also unsustainable. Bodies will have to be moved. Whether those bodies can be moved for really great draft picks or for good prospects or whatever, who knows? It's more than just dumping Berglund and Ott because we don't like them and they make a lot of money. That clears space for Fabbri and Barbashev and frees up SOME money. Then what?

Dumping Leopold for a crappy draft pick is actually very foretelling of this teams situation. We have a solid NHL roster, a deep AHL roster and very good prospects. So the only thing this team really needs, at the moment, is cap space and in the near future, roster space. We don't need NHL ready bodies and it really wouldn't make a bit of sense to trade one NHL body for another NHL body if the point is to get the prospects promoted and playing. There's no pressing need for any particular position that doesn't already exist somewhere within the organization other than, maybe, some depth at wing. So the most logical thing to do is trade excess players for draft picks to keep the pipeline flowing. And yes, that may or may not involve trading guys like Bouwmeester, Oshie, Steen, Backes, etc...sometime in the next few seasons. Stockpiling draft picks is a telltale sign of a team in rebuild mode, yes. But it can just as easily be a sign of a team that refuses to put their fans through a rebuild by having a steady flow and a staggered approach to player replacement.
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Re: The official "salary cap is staying put" thread

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glen a richter wrote:
WaukeeBlues wrote:The fact that you guys are honestly arguing about the Blues possibly trading for the top 1 or 2 picks in this years draft is... I can't even... :facepalm:

No offense but not worthy of a rational response.
Obviously this a hypothetical situation, rooted in a very serious short and long term situation.

Facts are some big contracts will come due soon, namely Tarasenko this offseason and then Schwartz and Lehtera next offseason. Lost in all this is that the other 2/3rds of that line aren't exactly locked up on 8 year deals and none of them will come cheap next time around.

Also factual is that there are guys who are getting older and a deep pipeline. I mean honestly, we have a frikkin Russian center who's pacing about 2 points per game, granted at a significantly lower level of competition but undeniably talented. To even suggest that the roster, as it stands today, will be the roster for the next 5 or 6 or 7 years is insane. Financially, it's unsustainable regardless of how much money the team makes or how many Cups they win because Cups don't make the cap go higher. In terms of roster space, it's also unsustainable. Bodies will have to be moved. Whether those bodies can be moved for really great draft picks or for good prospects or whatever, who knows? It's more than just dumping Berglund and Ott because we don't like them and they make a lot of money. That clears space for Fabbri and Barbashev and frees up SOME money. Then what?

Dumping Leopold for a crappy draft pick is actually very foretelling of this teams situation. We have a solid NHL roster, a deep AHL roster and very good prospects. So the only thing this team really needs, at the moment, is cap space and in the near future, roster space. We don't need NHL ready bodies and it really wouldn't make a bit of sense to trade one NHL body for another NHL body if the point is to get the prospects promoted and playing. There's no pressing need for any particular position that doesn't already exist somewhere within the organization other than, maybe, some depth at wing. So the most logical thing to do is trade excess players for draft picks to keep the pipeline flowing. And yes, that may or may not involve trading guys like Bouwmeester, Oshie, Steen, Backes, etc...sometime in the next few seasons. Stockpiling draft picks is a telltale sign of a team in rebuild mode, yes. But it can just as easily be a sign of a team that refuses to put their fans through a rebuild by having a steady flow and a staggered approach to player replacement.
I was just talking about Connor McDavid and Jack Eichel. If even half of what you read about these guys ends up being true they are going to be monumental players in this league for years to come, the likes of Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin-esque. The haul that you'd have to provide to get the Sabres' GM to even answer the phone isn't worth discussing. It'd be outrageous.
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