UPDATED 9/27/14: Schwartz Signed

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Re: Schwartz

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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:
Misc. Blues wrote:
JesusNEVERexisted wrote:Yeah it's just greed, plain and simple. It's true the owners have it too but they are not the icdeal the fans are affected more personally if a playeis doesn't show up due to greed.

Plus the owners can't be THAT greedy. NHL owners are the least profitworthy. If you want to get rich being an owner then own an NFL team!

I hate asking but Huh? The owners are the ice? Profitworthy(not a word)? ...and the Toronto Maple Leafs, New York Rangers, Montreal Canadiens, Chicago Blackhawks and Boston Bruins would argue with getting rich.

http://www.forbes.com/nhl-valuations/list
There is a LOT more profit and revenue in owning an NFL team as opposed to an NHL team. Right off the bat the NFL has a multi billion dollar TV deal that owners get a slice of. I doubt the NHL deal is even worth 1 billion but regardless the NFL gets BILLIONS more in TV revenue alone than the NHL.
The combined NHL TV deal in the USA and Canada is about $614 million per year.
200 million per year from NBC
414 million per year from Rogers Sportsnet.
But US based teams have individual TV Deals with Fox Sports Net & other broadcasting outlets in the USA, which earns them more money than the NHL deal...so they get more money there. The Rangers get $35 million a year from MSG, the Red Wings get $35 million a year from FSD, Islanders are at $24 million from MSG, Devils $24 million, Stars $20 million (really?), Kings $20 million, Penguins $18 million...

The NFL TV deal is about $7 billion per year. And the owners get more than a slice of it...they get all of it.
This is the reason NFL teams are worth three times what MLB teams are worth...and it's understandable (still ridiculous, but understandable) since the Super Bowl last year drew a record audience of 111 million people and NFL games represented 23 of the 25 most-watched TV programs last fall and they attracted twice as many average viewers as broadcast primetime shows.
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Re: Schwartz

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When I said a slice I meant they get 1/32 of it because it is split up between all 32 NFL teams. I know they get all of it. The NFL is so money hungry they'd never have it any other way!

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Re: Schwartz

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Comparisons to NHL players? How many millions of people play hockey on this planet? And there are, what-600 or so-on active rosters at any given point? I sincerely doubt anyone posting here excels in their field to anywhere near the extent NHL players do. If you are that effective, yes, you can swing things like 50% increases in pay year-on-year. Especially if you work in certain sectors. And unlike many of their finance industry counterparts, NHL players aren't doing things every day that are almost certainly illegal and definitely unethical. But I digress.
ComradeT wrote: In this day and age, with modern medical advances, career-ending injuries are becoming much more rare, so the only thing that drives this is greed, not so much fear. There, I said it.
Again, that's one possible perspective, sure. Extending it to its logical conclusion, anytime anyone attempts to maximize their material wealth beyond what they actually need to subsist it can be described as greed. Schwartz is being made what I'm sure is a generous offer, lots of money, I'd cream myself for such an offer. He's not taking it and that can be called greedy. Just as true: the Blues don't want to offer him more. They want to keep him but they don't want to up their bid. They're trying to get value for money, ie, something that is worth more than you pay for it. That can also be called greedy. I don't find it useful. Also, favoring the position of an organization headed by a man personally worth scores of millions if not more over a guy whose career earnings are a few hundred thousand doesn't seem very socialist to me, Comrade!

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Re: Schwartz

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ecbm wrote:Comparisons to NHL players? How many millions of people play hockey on this planet? And there are, what-600 or so-on active rosters at any given point? I sincerely doubt anyone posting here excels in their field to anywhere near the extent NHL players do. If you are that effective, yes, you can swing things like 50% increases in pay year-on-year. Especially if you work in certain sectors. And unlike many of their finance industry counterparts, NHL players aren't doing things every day that are almost certainly illegal and definitely unethical. But I digress.
ComradeT wrote: In this day and age, with modern medical advances, career-ending injuries are becoming much more rare, so the only thing that drives this is greed, not so much fear. There, I said it.
Again, that's one possible perspective, sure. Extending it to its logical conclusion, anytime anyone attempts to maximize their material wealth beyond what they actually need to subsist it can be described as greed. Schwartz is being made what I'm sure is a generous offer, lots of money, I'd cream myself for such an offer. He's not taking it and that can be called greedy. Just as true: the Blues don't want to offer him more. They want to keep him but they don't want to up their bid. They're trying to get value for money, ie, something that is worth more than you pay for it. That can also be called greedy. I don't find it useful. Also, favoring the position of an organization headed by a man personally worth scores of millions if not more over a guy whose career earnings are a few hundred thousand doesn't seem very socialist to me, Comrade!
Those unethical guys you reference (if I understand you correctly) usually influence their bonuses, which are performance driven and are not determined at the beginning of the year but at the end. I would be perfectly fine with all NHL contract having a bonus clause based on a certain production threshold. Provided, of course, that the base would be that much lower. But NHLPA obviously won't stand for this, otherwise performance-based contracts would be used all over.

Also, thanks for the label. Extending your logic, supporting either side here is not very socialistic, n'est pas?

Blues are at the cap, we all know that. We don't know what they have offered but they can't give him $3mil, if that's what he's asking. Also, just because Stillman is worth scores of millions of dollars we can't assume his commitment to Blues is measured in the same scores or that the scores are easily available (I bet you most of his fortune is tied up in illiquid business ventured that can be valued but not easily cashed out at the same valuations).

Also, yes, the logic can be extended as you suggested, and yes, any time someone tries to get an upper hand in negotiations it's usually out of greed or desire to get more. Greed is a normal human emotion. Schwartz's problem is that he has no basis for getting an upper hand here.
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Re: Schwartz

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The Blues and Schwartz are now "only" 500k apart. It should get done but Boat left over 300k.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2014 ... 00k-apart/

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Re: Schwartz

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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:The Blues and Schwartz are now "only" 500k apart. It should get done but Boat left over 300k.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2014 ... 00k-apart/
At least it's moving in the right direction, but just sign him already. It's a good deal either way, even the article says that.
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Re: Schwartz

Post by glen a richter »

Boat's a damn commie pig. Schwartz won't snivel over a half mil.
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Re: Schwartz

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glen a richter wrote:Boat's a damn commie pig. Schwartz won't snivel over a half mil.
Boat played his heart out, got banged up like nothing else and kept on fighting and wouldn't give up. I would have given the guy more than $200k past his asking price. All heart.

This group pays the likes of Ott and Bergy, but argues with Boat and now is arguing with Jaden Schwartz over half a mil. Are you serious?

You can't Billy Beane a team to a Cup, no matter how hard you try and they're doing it wrong anyway since we're spent to the Cap and don't have one Elite Forward to show for it. Pay what the people are worth, dump the trash and you might get somewhere.

I don't care what kind of RFA whateverhaveyou they got with Jaden. Pay the man. He's one of the pieces of the future and he ain't asking for 6m a year, he's asking for TWO POINT SIX MIL. Anyone who doesn't think Jaden is worth that, is franking out of their mind. PAY HIM. They didn't blink when they paid Ott, they sure as hell shouldn't blink when it comes to Jaden or Tank. Them doing that raises some serious concerns in my mind about the handling of this team, especially when they're making excuses and saying that players like Bergy have value. Sure...to Edmonton, maybe :facepalm: .

And you're damn right I said that. Pisses me off to no end.
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Re: Schwartz

Post by JesusNEVERexisted »

I remember during those last few games of the season Kerber said Boat HATES to lose and takes it personally. At least I think it was Boat. I know it was either Boat or Tarasenko but pretty sure it was Boat.

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Re: Schwartz

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JesusNEVERexisted wrote:I remember during those last few games of the season Kerber said Boat HATES to lose and takes it personally. At least I think it was Boat. I know it was either Boat or Tarasenko but pretty sure it was Boat.
I would hope that attitude applies to every single player on the team.
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Re: Schwartz

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ComradeT wrote:Those unethical guys you reference (if I understand you correctly) usually influence their bonuses, which are performance driven and are not determined at the beginning of the year but at the end. I would be perfectly fine with all NHL contract having a bonus clause based on a certain production threshold. Provided, of course, that the base would be that much lower. But NHLPA obviously won't stand for this, otherwise performance-based contracts would be used all over.
I completely agree about performance-based contracts. Doesn't look like happening but strikes me as a great idea. I'm guessing both sides have their reasons for that. The Blues, for example, would have paid out a whole lot of bonus to Schwartz last year. He went beyond all of the-reasonably high-expectations.
ComradeT wrote:Also, thanks for the label. Extending your logic, supporting either side here is not very socialistic, n'est pas?
Fair enough. I'm not really serious about that of course. I just know everyone here loves to discuss socialism.
ComradeT wrote:Blues are at the cap, we all know that. We don't know what they have offered but they can't give him $3mil, if that's what he's asking.
Now we're getting down to it. Someone is sitting across the table asking a guy who was third in goals on the team to take a hit because they just HAD TO pay Ott & Berglund. Not being partisan for either side I can completely understand Schwartz's take that that's the Blues' problem, not his. I would love to hear the actual explanation as to why it was a priority to sign Berglund. Really, I would. And Ott? That was a blatant, wetting-their-pants-over-Boat-leaving panic move. (And I don't get that either since we had already signed Stastny, Lehtera and Lindstrom, re-upped Berglund and still had Backes and LaPierre obviously.) So what's done is done. Clear out some of the roster deadwood and create space. That's more reasonable than asking Schwartz to sign under the market. Nobody has explained to me why he should not expect just as much money as Justin Schultz-but the Blues don't want to give him $1M lessper year according to the rumors. WTF?
ComradeT wrote:Schwartz's problem is that he has no basis for getting an upper hand here.
You're right about greed being normal. But for perspective, again: Schwartz is asking-from what we've all heard/read-for $1.15M per year less than what Schultz is getting and will take that salary for two years rather than one. I don't see him trying to get the upper hand. I see a Blues FO that may be thinking they can get every player ever on a bargain. It worries me to think of what's going to happen if Vova hits his upside and can reasonably say: somewhere in the Weber to Malkin range.

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Re: Schwartz

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On the bright side, Berglund is apparently "more fit". Here's to hoping he proves me and many others wrong this season.

This doesn't really fit in this thread, but in a way it does because Berglund doesn't fit into the Blues system either.

Really though, hearing that Magnum PI and Berglund showed up in better shape and stronger can only be looked at as a good sign. Hopefully it translates onto the ice.
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Re: Schwartz

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ViPeRx007 wrote:On the bright side, Berglund is apparently "more fit". Here's to hoping he proves me and many others wrong this season.

This doesn't really fit in this thread, but in a way it does because Berglund doesn't fit into the Blues system either.

Really though, hearing that Magnum PI and Berglund showed up in better shape and stronger can only be looked at as a good sign. Hopefully it translates onto the ice.
Hmph. We'll see. Strength never seemed to be their problem to me-both are big, strong guys who don't make use of their strength and size for some reason. Whereas Boat (2/7/9 in 9GP, +9 for Avangard) is an average-sized guy who plays bigger than both. Pretty much mental. Can't fix that in the gym.

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Re: Schwartz

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ecbm wrote:
ComradeT wrote:Those unethical guys you reference (if I understand you correctly) usually influence their bonuses, which are performance driven and are not determined at the beginning of the year but at the end. I would be perfectly fine with all NHL contract having a bonus clause based on a certain production threshold. Provided, of course, that the base would be that much lower. But NHLPA obviously won't stand for this, otherwise performance-based contracts would be used all over.
I completely agree about performance-based contracts. Doesn't look like happening but strikes me as a great idea. I'm guessing both sides have their reasons for that. The Blues, for example, would have paid out a whole lot of bonus to Schwartz last year. He went beyond all of the-reasonably high-expectations.
ComradeT wrote:Also, thanks for the label. Extending your logic, supporting either side here is not very socialistic, n'est pas?
Fair enough. I'm not really serious about that of course. I just know everyone here loves to discuss socialism.
ComradeT wrote:Blues are at the cap, we all know that. We don't know what they have offered but they can't give him $3mil, if that's what he's asking.
Now we're getting down to it. Someone is sitting across the table asking a guy who was third in goals on the team to take a hit because they just HAD TO pay Ott & Berglund. Not being partisan for either side I can completely understand Schwartz's take that that's the Blues' problem, not his. I would love to hear the actual explanation as to why it was a priority to sign Berglund. Really, I would. And Ott? That was a blatant, wetting-their-pants-over-Boat-leaving panic move. (And I don't get that either since we had already signed Stastny, Lehtera and Lindstrom, re-upped Berglund and still had Backes and LaPierre obviously.) So what's done is done. Clear out some of the roster deadwood and create space. That's more reasonable than asking Schwartz to sign under the market. Nobody has explained to me why he should not expect just as much money as Justin Schultz-but the Blues don't want to give him $1M lessper year according to the rumors. WTF?
ComradeT wrote:Schwartz's problem is that he has no basis for getting an upper hand here.
You're right about greed being normal. But for perspective, again: Schwartz is asking-from what we've all heard/read-for $1.15M per year less than what Schultz is getting and will take that salary for two years rather than one. I don't see him trying to get the upper hand. I see a Blues FO that may be thinking they can get every player ever on a bargain. It worries me to think of what's going to happen if Vova hits his upside and can reasonably say: somewhere in the Weber to Malkin range.
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Re: Schwartz

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again... screw Schwartz. yeah, he's a nice little player, but I don't see much upside to him to be honest.
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Re: Schwartz

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ecbm wrote:
ViPeRx007 wrote:On the bright side, Berglund is apparently "more fit". Here's to hoping he proves me and many others wrong this season.

This doesn't really fit in this thread, but in a way it does because Berglund doesn't fit into the Blues system either.

Really though, hearing that Magnum PI and Berglund showed up in better shape and stronger can only be looked at as a good sign. Hopefully it translates onto the ice.
Hmph. We'll see. Strength never seemed to be their problem to me-both are big, strong guys who don't make use of their strength and size for some reason. Whereas Boat (2/7/9 in 9GP, +9 for Avangard) is an average-sized guy who plays bigger than both. Pretty much mental. Can't fix that in the gym.
I was at the afternoon practice on Wednesday and a number of times, Berglund wasn't able to do something, had the puck knocked away, or whatever and he looked so down on himself...like he was shaking his head mouthing something to himself. I'm not sure how he looked in other practices, but he looked down on himself yesterday...or maybe he was just thinking about his entire last season.
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Re: Schwartz

Post by Oaklandblue »

cprice12 wrote:
ecbm wrote:
ViPeRx007 wrote:On the bright side, Berglund is apparently "more fit". Here's to hoping he proves me and many others wrong this season.

This doesn't really fit in this thread, but in a way it does because Berglund doesn't fit into the Blues system either.

Really though, hearing that Magnum PI and Berglund showed up in better shape and stronger can only be looked at as a good sign. Hopefully it translates onto the ice.
Hmph. We'll see. Strength never seemed to be their problem to me-both are big, strong guys who don't make use of their strength and size for some reason. Whereas Boat (2/7/9 in 9GP, +9 for Avangard) is an average-sized guy who plays bigger than both. Pretty much mental. Can't fix that in the gym.
I was at the afternoon practice on Wednesday and a number of times, Berglund wasn't able to do something, had the puck knocked away, or whatever and he looked so down on himself...like he was shaking his head mouthing something to himself. I'm not sure how he looked in other practices, but he looked down on himself yesterday...or maybe he was just thinking about his entire last season.
Out of left field here, but could there be some issue that Bergy is dealing with, like dyslexia or somesuch? I'm sure it's not that but at the same token, if he's doing that, it makes one wonder and actually makes me feel sympathetic to him and this is a guy that I outright wish we'd not have signed. Does he have a Concussion injury in the past that might explain this?
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Re: Schwartz

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Berglund is just a weirdo. He's Scandinavian. There's weird crap that goes on up there. Like democratic socialism, sterilization and inbreeding.
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Re: Schwartz

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We had a poster from Sweden back when Berglund was drafted, I think it was Ehijo, who said that Berglund tended to get really down on himself when he didn't play well and go into a funk. At the time I wondered if the Blues had a sports psychologist on staff to deal with players like that. I still don't know whether they do or not, but it would make sense to have one.
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Re: Schwartz

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big d note wrote:We had a poster from Sweden back when Berglund was drafted, I think it was Ehijo, who said that Berglund tended to get really down on himself when he didn't play well and go into a funk. At the time I wondered if the Blues had a sports psychologist on staff to deal with players like that. I still don't know whether they do or not, but it would make sense to have one.
They tried to hire his mom but she refused cause she knew better.
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