Is Jake Allen the Answer?

[ViPeRx007]

Yea, I only read the thread title, because I assume the responses are mostly just bitching and moaning, but to answer the question: Not right away. Allen could be a good one, but I see him as the backup for at least a season or two. This is all kind of irrelevant because it sounds like you're blaming the goaltender again when it's clear that scoring is our real problem. No goaltender on the planet is going to be the answer there.

[sseagle]

Yea, I only read the thread title, because I assume the responses are mostly just bitching and moaning, but to answer the question: Not right away. Allen could be a good one, but I see him as the backup for at least a season or two. This is all kind of irrelevant because it sounds like you're blaming the goaltender again when it's clear that scoring is our real problem. No goaltender on the planet is going to be the answer there.

HOW MANY DAMN GOALS DID HE SCORE THIS SEASON??

[ViPeRx007]

Yea, I only read the thread title, because I assume the responses are mostly just bitching and moaning, but to answer the question: Not right away. Allen could be a good one, but I see him as the backup for at least a season or two. This is all kind of irrelevant because it sounds like you're blaming the goaltender again when it's clear that scoring is our real problem. No goaltender on the planet is going to be the answer there.

HOW MANY DAMN GOALS DID HE SCORE THIS SEASON??

I don't know off the top of my head but I feel like 0 is probably a safe guess.

[sseagle]

Yea, I only read the thread title, because I assume the responses are mostly just bitching and moaning, but to answer the question: Not right away. Allen could be a good one, but I see him as the backup for at least a season or two. This is all kind of irrelevant because it sounds like you're blaming the goaltender again when it's clear that scoring is our real problem. No goaltender on the planet is going to be the answer there.

HOW MANY DAMN GOALS DID HE SCORE THIS SEASON??

I don't know off the top of my head but I feel like 0 is probably a safe guess.

Don't see how he is helping then...

Does he play defense THE WHOLE GODDAMN GAME?

[Oaklandblue]

Yea, I only read the thread title, because I assume the responses are mostly just bitching and moaning, but to answer the question: Not right away. Allen could be a good one, but I see him as the backup for at least a season or two. This is all kind of irrelevant because it sounds like you're blaming the goaltender again when it's clear that scoring is our real problem. No goaltender on the planet is going to be the answer there.

HOW MANY DAMN GOALS DID HE SCORE THIS SEASON??

I don't know off the top of my head but I feel like 0 is probably a safe guess.

Don't see how he is helping then...

Does he play defense THE WHOLE GODDAMN GAME?

Neeope. Jake's got 1 Assist in 52 games this 2013-14 season, ranking him alongside the likes of Chris Porter

The More You Know (Throws a star out there) ~*

[cprice12]

The reason I ask this question is because he's in the Calder Cup and he's (2-2, GAA 3.09, SV% .884). The Chicago Wolves are a #2 seed and the Rochester Americans are #7. That's AHL people and not getting it done. I know we have high hopes for the kid but no way he's a NHL starter. Let me know what you guys think...

Game 5 (best of 5 series) is today at 3pm CT.

Allen wasn't "great" when he was up here last year. (15GP, 2.46 GAA and a .905 save % ...meh) But he won games, so his so-so stats were lauded as amazing...and that's all folks remember. The fact is, the Blues simply played better in front of him than they did in front of Halak and Elliott...they stepped their game up...seemingly to protect the kid in net. Obviously I'd love for the kid to eventually pan out and be a great netminder in the NHL...eventually. But no way in hell would I say he is ready to be our #1 next year.

Yes, he had a great season in the AHL this year. And the 5 games so far in the playoffs is a small sample size...so I wouldn't read too much into the playoff stats. He could have been hung out to dry on some of those goals...I don't know. But his great year was still in the AHL. Lots of folks tear it up in the AHL and never pan out in the NHL.

We'll find out next year when he is backing up...whoever, if he is ready. Hopefully he is, because we have cup hopes for next season...and if our #1 goes down, he has to lead this team through the playoffs...and right now, I'm not comfortable at all with that scenario.

[KrustyKevo]

Ken Dryden, Patrick Roy, Cam Ward... Jake Allen?

I don't know if he's 100% certainly the answer in goal for next season, but I don't see the harm in trying. He would have a great D in front of him and if there was just a bit more scoring (we've talked about this a million times) the Blues system is such that pretty much anyone with hockey sense could succeed in goal and Allen could very well be the guy to take us to the Cup. After a full season of NHL experience I think he'd be good to go in the playoffs. Actually, does Jake count as a rookie anymore, or did he play too much last season?

This is precisely my thoughts on Allen. He's been up here before, we've seen him play amazing in the NHL before, and that was before we had a completely dominating force on the back end like we have now. I think you give it a try next season. Not as a #1 role, of course.

[cprice12]

Ken Dryden, Patrick Roy, Cam Ward... Jake Allen?

I don't know if he's 100% certainly the answer in goal for next season, but I don't see the harm in trying. He would have a great D in front of him and if there was just a bit more scoring (we've talked about this a million times) the Blues system is such that pretty much anyone with hockey sense could succeed in goal and Allen could very well be the guy to take us to the Cup. After a full season of NHL experience I think he'd be good to go in the playoffs. Actually, does Jake count as a rookie anymore, or did he play too much last season?

This is precisely my thoughts on Allen. He's been up here before, we've seen him play amazing in the NHL before, and that was before we had a completely dominating force on the back end like we have now. I think you give it a try next season. Not as a #1 role, of course.

I don't know about him being amazing...he was decent and had a few really good games of the 15 he played in.
The media built him up as a savior because the team started winning when he took over for a while.

I'm all for him being the backup next year though. It's the logical next step for him.

[Misc. Blues]

Ken Dryden, Patrick Roy, Cam Ward... Jake Allen?

I don't know if he's 100% certainly the answer in goal for next season, but I don't see the harm in trying. He would have a great D in front of him and if there was just a bit more scoring (we've talked about this a million times) the Blues system is such that pretty much anyone with hockey sense could succeed in goal and Allen could very well be the guy to take us to the Cup. After a full season of NHL experience I think he'd be good to go in the playoffs. Actually, does Jake count as a rookie anymore, or did he play too much last season?

This is precisely my thoughts on Allen. He's been up here before, we've seen him play amazing in the NHL before, and that was before we had a completely dominating force on the back end like we have now. I think you give it a try next season. Not as a #1 role, of course.

Amazing?

2012-2013 - Regular Season 2012-2013

Code: Select all

                       DEC  GA   SA   SV    SV%  SO  PIM   TOI  EVGA PPGA ENGA ENGA
APR 21 '13   STL @ COL	 	1	12	11	.917	0	0	22:37	1	0	0	 0
APR 12 '13   STL @ CBJ	L	4	19	15	.789	0	0	60:00	4	0	0	 0
APR 05 '13   CBJ @ STL	W	1	27	26	.963	0	0	60:00	1	0	0	 0
MAR 26 '13   EDM @ STL	L	3	 7	 4	.571	0	0	25:17	3	0	0	 0
MAR 19 '13   STL @ VAN	L	3	19	16	.842	0	0	59:26	3	0	0	 0
MAR 16 '13   ANA @ STL	W	1	28	27	.964	0	0	60:33	1	0	0	 0
MAR 14 '13   PHX @ STL	W	0	28	28	1.00	1	0	60:00	0	0	0	 0
MAR 12 '13   SJS @ STL	W	2	41	39	.951	0	0	60:00	1	1	0	 0
MAR 09 '13   STL @ SJS	W	3	25	22	.880	0	0	61:12	2	1	0	 0
MAR 07 '13   STL @ PHX	W	3	26	23	.885	0	0	60:00	1	1	1	 0
FEB 19 '13   SJS @ STL	L	2	25	23	.920	0	0	58:16	2	0	0	 0
FEB 17 '13   STL @ VAN	W	3	31	28	.903	0	0	65:00	1	2	0	 0
FEB 15 '13   STL @ CGY	W	2	32	30	.938	0	0	60:00	1	1	0	 0
FEB 13 '13   STL @ DET	W	3	18	15	.833	0	0	60:52	3	0	0	 0
FEB 05 '13   NSH @ STL	 	2	 8	 6	.750	0	0	30:40	2	0	0	 0

[/size]

Code: Select all

GP	W	L	T	OT	SO	GA	SA	 SV%	 GAA   MIN
15	9	4	-	 0	1	33	346	.905	2.46	804

I guess we will see...

[WaukeeBlues]

1) I'm not in favor of doing anything with Ryan Miller that will cost us our 2014 first round pick. One first rounder and a starting goaltender to the Sabres was enough. We desperately need that first round pick.

2) I think it's a monumental risk having Elliott/Allen as our tandem for next year. I really do. Elliott has played, overall, very well for us since he's been here but he's never played more than 55 games in a season (which he did precisely once, with very average numbers) before dropping off to 44 games as the next most he's ever played in a season. He's played in 18 playoff games. If Elliott drops off and Allen has a forgiveable-considering-he's-young funk, we're in serious trouble. Very, very risky. IF the Blues choose this route I'd be more comfortable if the Blues did something like the Hawks did this year bringing in a veteran goaltender on the cheap as a backup and using Allen as the 3rd string with the idea that he's going to get some starts. Yea we save a ton of money in the salary cap but it's a bold risk. And those AHL numbers scare me. Allen should know that the Blues are watching him very closely right now.

[glen a richter]

I don't feel like doing the math, but take out the outliers of the rocky ending and what does he have? Of course that doesn't do anything to support my assertion that he'd be good to go after a full season on the job, but it's an interesting stat nonetheless. When it became evident he wouldn't be spending a whole lot more time at the NHL level with both Halak and Ells back, something happened there.

[glen a richter]

1) I'm not in favor of doing anything with Ryan Miller that will cost us our 2014 first round pick. One first rounder and a starting goaltender to the Sabres was enough. We desperately need that first round pick.

2) I think it's a monumental risk having Elliott/Allen as our tandem for next year. I really do. Elliott has played, overall, very well for us since he's been here but he's never played more than 55 games in a season (which he did precisely once, with very average numbers) before dropping off to 44 games as the next most he's ever played in a season. He's played in 18 playoff games. If Elliott drops off and Allen has a forgiveable-considering-he's-young funk, we're in serious trouble. Very, very risky. IF the Blues choose this route I'd be more comfortable if the Blues did something like the Hawks did this year bringing in a veteran goaltender on the cheap as a backup and using Allen as the 3rd string with the idea that he's going to get some starts. Yea we save a ton of money in the salary cap but it's a bold risk. And those AHL numbers scare me. Allen should know that the Blues are watching him very closely right now.

What exactly is frightening about 33-16-3 with 7 shutouts, a 2.03 GAA and .928 save %? I think the numbers you're referencing are the ones misc blues posted from his stint with the team last season?

[WaukeeBlues]

1) I'm not in favor of doing anything with Ryan Miller that will cost us our 2014 first round pick. One first rounder and a starting goaltender to the Sabres was enough. We desperately need that first round pick.

2) I think it's a monumental risk having Elliott/Allen as our tandem for next year. I really do. Elliott has played, overall, very well for us since he's been here but he's never played more than 55 games in a season (which he did precisely once, with very average numbers) before dropping off to 44 games as the next most he's ever played in a season. He's played in 18 playoff games. If Elliott drops off and Allen has a forgiveable-considering-he's-young funk, we're in serious trouble. Very, very risky. IF the Blues choose this route I'd be more comfortable if the Blues did something like the Hawks did this year bringing in a veteran goaltender on the cheap as a backup and using Allen as the 3rd string with the idea that he's going to get some starts. Yea we save a ton of money in the salary cap but it's a bold risk. And those AHL numbers scare me. Allen should know that the Blues are watching him very closely right now.

What exactly is frightening about 33-16-3 with 7 shutouts, a 2.03 GAA and .928 save %? I think the numbers you're referencing are the ones misc blues posted from his stint with the team last season?

Elliott having been the starting goaltender exactly once in his NHL career and nothing more than fleeting NHL experience for Allen. THAT'S what's frightening. Numbers be damned, I can play one NHL game, beat Patrick Roy on a breakaway and then not do crap ever again. I'm exaggerating to make a point but still.

Heck, look no farther than Halak. We acquired and paid him essentially on the basis of one playoff run. How'd that work out?

[glen a richter]

1) I'm not in favor of doing anything with Ryan Miller that will cost us our 2014 first round pick. One first rounder and a starting goaltender to the Sabres was enough. We desperately need that first round pick.

2) I think it's a monumental risk having Elliott/Allen as our tandem for next year. I really do. Elliott has played, overall, very well for us since he's been here but he's never played more than 55 games in a season (which he did precisely once, with very average numbers) before dropping off to 44 games as the next most he's ever played in a season. He's played in 18 playoff games. If Elliott drops off and Allen has a forgiveable-considering-he's-young funk, we're in serious trouble. Very, very risky. IF the Blues choose this route I'd be more comfortable if the Blues did something like the Hawks did this year bringing in a veteran goaltender on the cheap as a backup and using Allen as the 3rd string with the idea that he's going to get some starts. Yea we save a ton of money in the salary cap but it's a bold risk. And those AHL numbers scare me. Allen should know that the Blues are watching him very closely right now.

What exactly is frightening about 33-16-3 with 7 shutouts, a 2.03 GAA and .928 save %? I think the numbers you're referencing are the ones misc blues posted from his stint with the team last season?

Elliott having been the starting goaltender exactly once in his NHL career and nothing more than fleeting NHL experience for Allen. THAT'S what's frightening. Numbers be damned, I can play one NHL game, beat Patrick Roy on a breakaway and then not do crap ever again. I'm exaggerating to make a point but still.

Heck, look no farther than Halak. We acquired and paid him essentially on the basis of one playoff run. How'd that work out?

You're saying Allen's AHL numbers scare you, but they were very solid. I can get being concerned about going into next season with an Elliott/Allen tandem, but I don't get the argument being based even partly on Allen's AHL numbers this season.

In any event, I think when it's all said and done the Blues will realize that they were only off by one letter when Miller goes and Hller comes. Elliott will be a non-factor anyway. Hiller/Allen is a nice sounding tandem.

[cprice12]

1) I'm not in favor of doing anything with Ryan Miller that will cost us our 2014 first round pick. One first rounder and a starting goaltender to the Sabres was enough. We desperately need that first round pick.

2) I think it's a monumental risk having Elliott/Allen as our tandem for next year. I really do. Elliott has played, overall, very well for us since he's been here but he's never played more than 55 games in a season (which he did precisely once, with very average numbers) before dropping off to 44 games as the next most he's ever played in a season. He's played in 18 playoff games. If Elliott drops off and Allen has a forgiveable-considering-he's-young funk, we're in serious trouble. Very, very risky. IF the Blues choose this route I'd be more comfortable if the Blues did something like the Hawks did this year bringing in a veteran goaltender on the cheap as a backup and using Allen as the 3rd string with the idea that he's going to get some starts. Yea we save a ton of money in the salary cap but it's a bold risk. And those AHL numbers scare me. Allen should know that the Blues are watching him very closely right now.

What exactly is frightening about 33-16-3 with 7 shutouts, a 2.03 GAA and .928 save %? I think the numbers you're referencing are the ones misc blues posted from his stint with the team last season?

Elliott having been the starting goaltender exactly once in his NHL career and nothing more than fleeting NHL experience for Allen. THAT'S what's frightening. Numbers be damned, I can play one NHL game, beat Patrick Roy on a breakaway and then not do crap ever again. I'm exaggerating to make a point but still.

Heck, look no farther than Halak. We acquired and paid him essentially on the basis of one playoff run. How'd that work out?

You're saying Allen's AHL numbers scare you, but they were very solid. I can get being concerned about going into next season with an Elliott/Allen tandem, but I don't get the argument being based even partly on Allen's AHL numbers this season.

In any event, I think when it's all said and done the Blues will realize that they were only off by one letter when Miller goes and Hller comes. Elliott will be a non-factor anyway. Hiller/Allen is a nice sounding tandem.

I mentioned Hiller as an option in another thread. I've always been a fan of his...probably because he was on my fantasy team for a while. Just depends on what his salary demands are. I'm sure he is high on the Blues list as possible candidates.

[Misc. Blues]

1) I'm not in favor of doing anything with Ryan Miller that will cost us our 2014 first round pick. One first rounder and a starting goaltender to the Sabres was enough. We desperately need that first round pick.

2) I think it's a monumental risk having Elliott/Allen as our tandem for next year. I really do. Elliott has played, overall, very well for us since he's been here but he's never played more than 55 games in a season (which he did precisely once, with very average numbers) before dropping off to 44 games as the next most he's ever played in a season. He's played in 18 playoff games. If Elliott drops off and Allen has a forgiveable-considering-he's-young funk, we're in serious trouble. Very, very risky. IF the Blues choose this route I'd be more comfortable if the Blues did something like the Hawks did this year bringing in a veteran goaltender on the cheap as a backup and using Allen as the 3rd string with the idea that he's going to get some starts. Yea we save a ton of money in the salary cap but it's a bold risk. And those AHL numbers scare me. Allen should know that the Blues are watching him very closely right now.

What exactly is frightening about 33-16-3 with 7 shutouts, a 2.03 GAA and .928 save %? I think the numbers you're referencing are the ones misc blues posted from his stint with the team last season?

Elliott having been the starting goaltender exactly once in his NHL career and nothing more than fleeting NHL experience for Allen. THAT'S what's frightening. Numbers be damned, I can play one NHL game, beat Patrick Roy on a breakaway and then not do crap ever again. I'm exaggerating to make a point but still.

Heck, look no farther than Halak. We acquired and paid him essentially on the basis of one playoff run. How'd that work out?

You're saying Allen's AHL numbers scare you, but they were very solid. I can get being concerned about going into next season with an Elliott/Allen tandem, but I don't get the argument being based even partly on Allen's AHL numbers this season.

In any event, I think when it's all said and done the Blues will realize that they were only off by one letter when Miller goes and Hller comes. Elliott will be a non-factor anyway. Hiller/Allen is a nice sounding tandem.

I mentioned Hiller as an option in another thread. I've always been a fan of his...probably because he was on my fantasy team for a while. Just depends on what his salary demands are. I'm sure he is high on the Blues list as possible candidates.

Yeah I hope that's the way the Blues go as well. I've always liked Jonas Hiller and he'll be cheaper than Miller too. Hiller was 4.5M this year and I think he'd sign for that or even 4M with the Blues since he's 32 already. I would love to keep our #1 pick as well. Miller=Hiller all we do is change the M to an H and all is right with the world again...

[flyingnote38]

Is Hiller the Blues' best option in goal? That's a definite maybe.

Here's some relevent career save percentages from SLGT "How the front office failed":

Goalie Career ES Save Percentage
Ryan Miller 0.923
Jaroslav Halak 0.925
Corey Crawford 0.924
Anttii Niemi 0.924
Jonathan Quick 0.923
Jonas Hiller 0.927

Elliott's career number looks to be .910 from the Blues website, but his performance while a Blue was considerably better and likely in the same ballpark as the players above (his overall save percentage as a Blues is .931)

The first 2 things that should jump out at you from the list are these:
1) 3 goalies on the list have won Stanley Cups
2) the goalies on the list are all comparable in terms of their effectiveness. The difference between a .927 and .923 save percentage is 4 goals over 1000 shots or, at the Blues' current rate of yielding shots, around 8 goals in a season.

So factoring that in, does it make sense to spend $6 Mil to lock up the best on the list? If we could acquire Niemi, who has 1 year remaining at $3.8 Mil, for a middling pickwould that be a better option (even though his most recent playoff performance made Miller's look slightly less worse)? Or for that matter if we could bring back Elliott for $2.5 to 3 Mil would that be the best option?

It depends alot on how much the Blues intend to spend in the offseason. The one thing you clearly do not want to do in this setting is spend big money for multiple years on the wrong goalie; just ask Carolina or Vancouver or the Isles

[Oaklandblue]

Why not just sign Brian Elliott and just spend the real money on scoring instead?

Elliott/Allen. There you go.

Stop trying to save the Miller trade. Let him walk, keep the pick that matters and chalk it up to experience. Anything else is just going to be even worse asset management than we're already at now with that situation.

All this talk about Miller, Hiller, etc. We keep getting the same end result: We're not getting the scoring. There's nothing wrong about playoff Elliott. Everyone can hammer on him for the regular season, sure, but in the playoffs, Elliott has been money for us. I'd rather him kick it up when it counts.

We're not going to get a Quick or some top end netminder without spending elite scoring money, so please let that go. If we were having problems with other areas, I'd be more in agreeance, but the area that's killed us beyond the PP has been scoring. The last few years, in fact.

But we're still looking down other avenues for goaltending? There's something wrong with this picture.

[gaijin]

Why not just sign Brian Elliott and just spend the real money on scoring instead?

Elliott/Allen. There you go.

Stop trying to save the Miller trade. Let him walk, keep the pick that matters and chalk it up to experience. Anything else is just going to be even worse asset management than we're already at now with that situation.

All this talk about Miller, Hiller, etc. We keep getting the same end result: We're not getting the scoring. There's nothing wrong about playoff Elliott. Everyone can hammer on him for the regular season, sure, but in the playoffs, Elliott has been money for us. I'd rather him kick it up when it counts.

We're not going to get a Quick or some top end netminder without spending elite scoring money, so please let that go. If we were having problems with other areas, I'd be more in agreeance, but the area that's killed us beyond the PP has been scoring. The last few years, in fact.

But we're still looking down other avenues for goaltending? There's something wrong with this picture.

I'm fine with that combo. I'm fine with just about any of the goaltending solutions that have been tossed around over the last week (Miller, Hiller, Elliott), provided the team also does something to address scoring.

So then that begs the question- which do we address first? Do we see what offensive talent we can lock up, then see how much money that leaves to address goaltending? Or do we sign one of the aforementioned goalies, and see what forwards are available that we can afford after that?

[WaukeeBlues]

Why not just sign Brian Elliott and just spend the real money on scoring instead?

Elliott/Allen. There you go.

Stop trying to save the Miller trade. Let him walk, keep the pick that matters and chalk it up to experience. Anything else is just going to be even worse asset management than we're already at now with that situation.

All this talk about Miller, Hiller, etc. We keep getting the same end result: We're not getting the scoring. There's nothing wrong about playoff Elliott. Everyone can hammer on him for the regular season, sure, but in the playoffs, Elliott has been money for us. I'd rather him kick it up when it counts.

We're not going to get a Quick or some top end netminder without spending elite scoring money, so please let that go. If we were having problems with other areas, I'd be more in agreeance, but the area that's killed us beyond the PP has been scoring. The last few years, in fact.

But we're still looking down other avenues for goaltending? There's something wrong with this picture.

I'm fine with that combo. I'm fine with just about any of the goaltending solutions that have been tossed around over the last week (Miller, Hiller, Elliott), provided the team also does something to address scoring.

So then that begs the question- which do we address first? Do we see what offensive talent we can lock up, then see how much money that leaves to address goaltending? Or do we sign one of the aforementioned goalies, and see what forwards are available that we can afford after that?

This team needs a #1 center. We don't have it. That is priority number 1 and it's not even close. No, Backes doesn't count and no Steen doesn't count. They are both very good players, they are both solid for us, but they are not, IMO, #1 centers. Any elite team we play in the playoffs presents a matchup problem for us because our first line, very simply, is not as good as other teams'.

So what do you do to correct it? You draft it, sign it, or acquire it. We clearly won't be able to draft it this offseason and even if we did you're looking at a 3-4 year development project before the guy can step in and BE that guy. From the list I saw this offseason I'm not sure it's a free agent availability.... so that leaves acquisition and all the joys and terrors with that that we've beaten to death in other threads.