Army: Keep or Fire?

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Army?

Keep
17
68%
Fire
8
32%
 
Total votes: 25

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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by WaukeeBlues »

Portland Blues wrote:
WaukeeBlues wrote: He's assembled a core that carried us to the most regular season wins in franchise history.
Not calling out Army, or your post, but this to me is sort of like the playoff appearance streak we had for 20+ years. Every year it seems to be used by the marketing dept. to sell season tickets, but after so long it needs to stop being used as a selling point. The last time we won the President's Trophy we immediately flamed out yet I recall that being the reason to buy tickets for the next season.

No answers on my part. Just frustration that the team always seems to be propped up by their regular season accomplishments.
I guess my point with saying that is that you can make the argument (and some have) that this is the best Blues team that has ever taken to the ice. I know dmiles argued that in the follow up to game 6 in another thread and I actually agree. Our 2001 team that battled the Ray Bourque Avs is probably the other team we've fielded that might be better than our current roster. But it's not by much if so.

I'm as frustrated and angry we lost as any other Blues fan but we didn't get rocked out there and went toe to toe with the defending Stanley Cup champions trading blows with them all the way to the end.
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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by flyingnote38 »

Assuming the division of responsibility has the GM making trades and the VP of player personnel running the draft. Here's Armstrong's resume.

Hired as VP of PP one week before the 2008 draft, I doubt he had the call on drafting Pietrangelo or the rest of that class (including Jake Allen)

But ran the draft in 2009 and in 2010 when we got Schwartz and Tarasenko. Not sure we got much out of those drafts beyond them though.

The Blues website seems to suggest he made the trade for Halak, but that took place 2 weeks before he was promoted to GM (on 7-1-2010) so its unclear to what extent he had the final say in that.

Here's how I'd rate his trades in his just under 4 years as GM:

Best
Cundari, Berra, and a 1st for Bouwmeester

Initially looked like a home run but trending the wrong way
Johnson, McClement, and a 1st (Siemens) for Stewart, Shattenkirk and a 2nd (Rattie)

Bad
2nd and 5th for Leopold
Halak, Stewart, Carrier, 1st and 3rd for Miller and Ott

dumps for draft picks
D'ags for a 5th
Crombeen and a 5th for a 3rd and 4th
Boyes for a 2nd (Edmundson)
Winchester for a 3rd (MacEachern)
Bishop for a second (Vannelli)
Brewer for Beukeboom and a 3rd (Binnington)
Perron for Paajarvi and a 2nd

Deals that didn't work out
DJ King for Della Rovere
3rd for Grachev
3rd and 2 4ths for a 2nd(Carrier - now departed)
Nikitin for Russell (Russell apparently remembered how to play hockey once he got to Calgary)

Unclear if free agent signings are his responsibility or the Pres, but since we have signed every ex-Star still living I guess maybe they are which makes for the following additions
Good
Elliott

Ok
Langenbruner
Arnott
Morrow
Lapierre

Eh
Roy
Cola
Nichol

Not so much
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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by Oaklandblue »

Say we fire Army. Who would you hire in his place that would do better?

The first person I'd fire is the PP Coach because that costed us the series.
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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by flyingnote38 »

Oaklandblue wrote:Say we fire Army. Who would you hire in his place that would do better?

The first person I'd fire is the PP Coach because that costed us the series.
Internal options would be Hull or MacInnis. Could always hire George McPhee. At least acquiring Caps would be better than Ex-Stars
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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by cprice12 »

Nyghtewynd wrote:Fire, and frankly it's not a debate. He failed on nearly every decision he made this year. The Miller trade alone is enough reason for a change, and it was way, WAY worse than that. If Army is here next year, Stillman falls into yet another long line of owners who don't really know what it takes to win.
Keep, and frankly it's not a debate.
Miller is not the reason we lost the series. He could have played better, but you could argue that he also kept us from being swept.

Army will be here next year, as he should be. Firing him would be a horrible knee-jerk reaction to the unfortunate playoff results.

We can't keep rebuilding this franchise every few years. That creates instability, uncertainty and leaves you with no consistency in the front office.
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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by ecbm »

We can't keep rebuilding this franchise every few years.
Fair enough. Can they keep saying "wait 'til next season" every year? It's an impasse. I don't know what the solution is. I don't care to speculate about it anymore. Maybe Armstong will be here next season, maybe he won't. Maybe the Blues improve and maybe they don't. Who knows? I have no idea and I've been watching for 30 years.

I do wish the myth that "Armstrong wins every trade" would die though. Objectively, he's had a rough couple of seasons.

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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by Oaklandblue »

Anyone can GM on paper. You can sign a guy who scored 50 goals or puts up 50 points a season, but are you considering for a moment how they do this? It's not just ability, it's about team makeup, what playbook and formations they thrive at to score those goals, what systems and their makeup as a person. These are human beings, not statistics. They get injured. They have slumps. They play for teams in faraway places while their spouse and kids are hundreds if not thousands of miles away and no matter how OK they say they are with it, a lot of their focus is on not being there. Can you not be there for your kids for months at a time? Not every player has the luxury of having their family nearby due to a spouse with a career or a job that has them in a certain location, like actresses, public officials, corporate managers and so forth. These things affect players and so does the thought of injury. There is life beyond Hockey and to hear stories like Chris Prongers, it can make you sit back and think about it, maybe even dwell on it. Yes, it's part of the game but you also have to consider that some of these injuries you have to life with for the rest of your life, too.

Gming isn't something you can do reliability without a crystal ball. All you can do is sign at that moment for a player based on past performance. You can sign a big name, like Paul Kariya, who looked good at the time and he falls apart. Blame the GM? Every signing is a risk and you risk it on many levels other than a statistic on a sheet. Will they get along and work for the coach? Will they get along with the players? Will they get the system and score?

And more importantly, can they make the transition from the AHL to the NHL and keep the level of intensity? All you have to judge from, is that performance. How many players have you seen that have gone from scoring like a madman in the AHL to not being able to cut it in an NHL sweater? That list is massive and growing every day.

Army has done a good job. Not a great job, but a good one. Every trade is a risk and every trade is done for a reason. Ott gave physicality and Army may have considered that with Backes, Steen, Schwartz, Tarasenko and Roy's output that another strong man who can't score would add physical depth. Halak kept getting injured and was ok enough but they got tired of waiting. We're ready to fire Army, but ask yourself two questions:

1. Did we get any players thanks to Army that have both made an Impact and are a cornerstone of the franchise?

2. If we fire Army, who could we get that is guranteed better? There really isn't anyone because news flash, those kind of GMs that can make one amazing deal after the other simply don't exist and those who do a good enough job are furniture.

All a GM can do is sign a prospect that looks like a good fit with good output and the rest is up to the player. You can sit down and look back and say we should have signed Towes, and sure you can say that, but you say that NOW what, four years after he got drafted? Hindsight doesn't help making a decision after the fact, before the fact. You invest, hire right and hope they can do the work. That's not a guranteed of anything.

Army made some mistakes, but now he has the opportunity with a new owner who wants to win to build up the rest of the way. It took the Canes what, two players added to their roster to win the Cup?

Everyone says the team sucks and they don't. They don't suffer from skill, heart or desire, their major disability over the last 40+ years has been LACK OF STABLE OWNERSHIP. Build up, Tear down, Sell. Build up, Tear down, sell. Seven owners in 40 years is insane. Those teams that win it all show consistancy, that puts you as a contender long enough to run the odds down to win it all.

The only team that has had this problem in the NHL, the ONLY one, is the Blues. Look up the history. Overcome that and we will win a Cup.
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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by Oaklandblue »

cprice12 wrote:
Nyghtewynd wrote:Fire, and frankly it's not a debate. He failed on nearly every decision he made this year. The Miller trade alone is enough reason for a change, and it was way, WAY worse than that. If Army is here next year, Stillman falls into yet another long line of owners who don't really know what it takes to win.
Keep, and frankly it's not a debate.
Miller is not the reason we lost the series. He could have played better, but you could argue that he also kept us from being swept.

Army will be here next year, as he should be. Firing him would be a horrible knee-jerk reaction to the unfortunate playoff results.

We can't keep rebuilding this franchise every few years. That creates instability, uncertainty and leaves you with no consistency in the front office.
Had Miller played lights out like Elliott did last year, we would have won the series. For a player demanding a 6m+ contract, expecting them to be lights out is a damn requirement. He let to many soft goals in and hell, .897 GAA? He was what, .924 on the worst team in the league? Sorry, Miller gets a ton of the blame. Not all, but he and the PP group owns the blame together, in my book.
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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by flyingnote38 »

not surprising given the nature of these Q&A sessions at this juncture of the season, but nothing Armstrong said today made me particularly optimistic. Of course, he can't really call anybody out especially if he's thinking about moving them, can't really say anything specific about the "market," and obviously he's not going to say "Boy I sure screwed the pooch at the deadline"
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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by gaijin »

The thing about blaming Army is that if Miller had played lights out, and we had won the freakin Cup this year, we would have praised the guy as an outright genius for giving up so little to acquire the guy with the ability to finally push us over the top. The only difference is that Miller's performance wasn't what we hoped. I'm inclined to blame Miller for that, not Armstrong.
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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by flyingnote38 »

gaijin wrote:The thing about blaming Army is that if Miller had played lights out, and we had won the freakin Cup this year, we would have praised the guy as an outright genius for giving up so little to acquire the guy with the ability to finally push us over the top. The only difference is that Miller's performance wasn't what we hoped. I'm inclined to blame Miller for that, not Armstrong.
You can't blame Miller for the trade. Plenty of people around the deadline said dealing for Miller was the wrong thing to do. Miller wasn't good enough; that's on Miller. But dealing for Miller and Ott in the first place, that's on Armstrong
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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by cprice12 »

flyingnote38 wrote:
gaijin wrote:The thing about blaming Army is that if Miller had played lights out, and we had won the freakin Cup this year, we would have praised the guy as an outright genius for giving up so little to acquire the guy with the ability to finally push us over the top. The only difference is that Miller's performance wasn't what we hoped. I'm inclined to blame Miller for that, not Armstrong.
You can't blame Miller for the trade. Plenty of people around the deadline said dealing for Miller was the wrong thing to do. Miller wasn't good enough; that's on Miller. But dealing for Miller and Ott in the first place, that's on Armstrong
And even more people said the Miller deal was the right thing to do. Just about every analyst across the league said the same.
Miller WAS good enough to beat Chicago. If the offense could have put a goal or two past Crawford in game #2 like they should have done, we'd have been up 3-0 and the series would have been all but over. OR...if the PP could have scored a goal or two in game #6 like they should have, we may have won that game too. Miller allowed a few softies in the series...but so did Crawford. The difference is the Hawks scored when they needed goals and the Blues weren't able to do that.

Offense and the PP are the most glaring needs this offseason. Hopefully that can be addressed in the offseason. I'm not concerned about the goaltending. I'd be happy with Miller or Elliott as the #1 and Allen backing either one of them up. Or...I'd be happy with Hiller as well if they go after him. They have a lot of options in net...and I think we'll be good there.
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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by cardsfan04 »

The Miller trade didn't work. I think we can pretty much all agree on that. But, I still don't blame Army for it. We had a really good team and he took a shot without giving up anything of worth from our NHL roster. It was a near-future low-risk, long-term medium risk, high-reward trade IMO. It didn't work, but I'm happy to take those kind of risks with the goal being winning a Cup. If he had traded a chunk of our NHL roster for him, I might feel differently, but I'm happy that the organization is willing to take a risk hoping it's the last piece. It didn't work, but it didn't need a 100% success rate for me to be happy with it.
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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by Misc. Blues »

If fired who replaces him?

I find this thread the biggest knee jerk I heard this season. All this because Miller/Ott for Halak/Stewart in a word "ridicules"

One of the Best teams in the NHL in the last 3 years so lets get rid of the GM or the coach?

Until the last few years players around the league never looked to the Blues as a place to go to win and we are supposed to lure elite players? It just doesn't happen. Hopefully that will change now that everyone is talking about the Blues...but I guess we'll see.

Remember this not 1 player on this roster has won a cup. So it's an uphill battle to convince them they can win it all.
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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by flyingnote38 »

Don't want to endlessly beat a dead horse. Clearly we are of a split opinion on the trade, Miller and Armstrong. I don't think Armstrong will be fired. I don't think firing him would kill our franchise or that we wouldn't be able to replace him with someone competent. But two last points (my iPad isn't giving me the "quote" option at the moment sorry)

1) Miller was not "good enough" to beat the Hawks. Miller could have been good enough, but was not. He could have played good enough to win, but did not. You can't blame the PP for Miller's sub-.900 save percentage in games 3 through 6. Crawford let in softies and apologized to his team for losing game 2 by the way, but his save percentage was like .937. His supporters here like to claim game 3 wasn't Miller's fault but gloss over that game 1 was won in spite of him -- both because of the hole he dug in the first period but also we lose if Lapierre isn't out of position behind Miller in the crease and doesn't stop that shot in OT.

2) Armstrong did this exact same job in Dallas with very similar results. He took over a team that had gone to 2 finals (winning one cup) shortly before he was promoted to GM (ie inherited a cup caliber core). In 6 years with Armstrong as GM, the Stars won a boatload of games, three division titles, 2 president trophies and how many cups again?
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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by Kerfuffle »

The game 3 goal against Miller though was a deflection. At first glance it looked like a softie right through the 5-hole but upon slow motion replay we saw a deflection that fooled Miller and let the puck through. I think it's hard to fault Miller for game 3 by insinuating he should have thrown a shutout. If the Blues score 2 goals that game they win 2-1.

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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by cardsfan04 »

Kerfuffle wrote:The game 3 goal against Miller though was a deflection. At first glance it looked like a softie right through the 5-hole but upon slow motion replay we saw a deflection that fooled Miller and let the puck through. I think it's hard to fault Miller for game 3 by insinuating he should have thrown a shutout. If the Blues score 2 goals that game they win 2-1.

I still think it was soft. Five hole needs to be closed. But it's pretty hilarious to try to blame a goalie for a 1-0 loss. Anytime a goalie allows 1 or fewer goals they are exempt from blame for a loss.
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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by dmiles2186 »

Kerfuffle wrote:The game 3 goal against Miller though was a deflection. At first glance it looked like a softie right through the 5-hole but upon slow motion replay we saw a deflection that fooled Miller and let the puck through. I think it's hard to fault Miller for game 3 by insinuating he should have thrown a shutout. If the Blues score 2 goals that game they win 2-1.
This is the sane way to look at it. But the Blues could go scoreless in 6 straight games and (most) Blues fans would still blame the goalie.
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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by not_a_wings_fan »

I think save %age is misleading, so I don't really look at it too much.

My expectation is that a goalie is going to give up an average of 2.00 goals a game. The distance from that point determines failure or greatness. So all things being equal, you will see the opponents score 1,2, or 3 goals the majority of games.

As such, I don't blame the goalie for any game the offense fails to score 3.00 goals or more. A 4-3 OT loss, maybe that's on the goalie maybe not. A 3-2 OT or regulation loss is on the FORWARDS who can't score enough goals to cover an average night by their goalie. A goalie giving up >3 goals in regulation more often than he's giving up <2 goals, you have a strong case that you need a better net minder.

Game three was 1-0 until the ENG sealed it. You can NEVER blame a goalie for not pitching a shutout. Never. You can blame your offense for not doing their job. That game was all on the team in front of Miller. (Missed open looks, lack of movement side to side, poor powerplay... etc.).

If you think Game 3 is on Miller - Even if he had stepped out of the way of a shot (which he didn't, it's just an extreme example) - you have unreasonable expectations for the position.

It's like bagging on a winger who didn't get a hat trick in a given game. It's just plain unreasonable.
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Re: Army: Keep or Fire?

Post by Slim »

Forgive me if I missed this, but I can't believe nobody mentioned it yet:

94 missed shots

That is not the coaches' nor the GM's fault. That is a team wide problem. Goalie wasn't up to par, PP was atrocious, Backes hit, ect... We could keep naming issues.
I know it's natural to want to blame someone, but this time there is not just one person. It's as simple as the Hawks never seemed to care about being down 0-2 and buried the chances they got and the Blue just didn't. That's it. It sucks and is awful but it is truly that easy.

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