We were the worst team in the leage and weren't in any position of leverage w/that trade. Sillinger had 22 goals but the was also a -17. This doesn't even register on any list of prominent moves by Pleau
WaukeeBlues wrote:
Janssen for Salvador
Pleau wasn't calling the shots when this trade was made. JD had to choose between keeping Jackman and Salvador. There was no way they were keeping either. Plus I hate to admit it, but Salvador was WAY over valued by many people in this city. He's a solid defenseman but he's not an all-world talent by any strecth of the imagination. A pick would have been better, I agree. But when you take into consideration the injuries DJ King has piled up, we ended up needing a guy like Janssen around anyhow. Devils most certainly "won" this transaction. But it wasn't as lopsided as you infer.
We were the worst team in the leage and weren't in any position of leverage w/that trade. Sillinger had 22 goals but the was also a -17. This doesn't even register on any list of prominent moves by Pleau
WaukeeBlues wrote:
Janssen for Salvador
Pleau wasn't calling the shots when this trade was made. JD had to choose between keeping Jackman and Salvador. There was no way they were keeping either. Plus I hate to admit it, but Salvador was WAY over valued by many people in this city. He's a solid defenseman but he's not an all-world talent by any strecth of the imagination. A pick would have been better, I agree. But when you take into consideration the injuries DJ King has piled up, we ended up needing a guy like Janssen around anyhow. Devils most certainly "won" this transaction. But it wasn't as lopsided as you infer.
Well when the choice is keep the UFA you have no intention of signing and letting him walk for nothing versus getting something in return for him at the deadline, it's a no-brainer. The offer from NJ was a 3rd round pick or Janssen. We know which JD picked.
I'd like a do-over on the Pronger trade too but when every team knows your owner is forcing you to move a guy, the offers just weren't that hot. I'd love to hear what some of the other offers were.
We were the worst team in the leage and weren't in any position of leverage w/that trade. Sillinger had 22 goals but the was also a -17. This doesn't even register on any list of prominent moves by Pleau
Disagree. He was having a career year that season, and yea he was -17... on a team with guys in the -25 range BECAUSE we were so terrible that year. He was a player re-born that season and we trade him for a gamble AHL player nobody had heard of who promptly packed for Russia first chance he got. I REFUSE to believe he couldn't get anything else for Sillinger; the guy was a stud that year.
strocklen083 wrote:
WaukeeBlues wrote:
Janssen for Salvador
Pleau wasn't calling the shots when this trade was made. JD had to choose between keeping Jackman and Salvador. There was no way they were keeping either. Plus I hate to admit it, but Salvador was WAY over valued by many people in this city. He's a solid defenseman but he's not an all-world talent by any strecth of the imagination. A pick would have been better, I agree. But when you take into consideration the injuries DJ King has piled up, we ended up needing a guy like Janssen around anyhow. Devils most certainly "won" this transaction. But it wasn't as lopsided as you infer.
Salvador didn't need to be an all-world talent, just reliable and responsible which is exactly what he was. If I were offered this trade, I probably would have laughed. Honestly. It was that bad.
You want to acquire a tough guy like Janssen with St. Louis roots- fine. But don't use Bryce Salvador, one of the few decent defensemen on the team that year IIRC, to do it.
And to cut Pleau some slack- I still give him mega props for the DUG WAITZ trade. We bent Anaheim over with that one and took advantage of their salary problems which was awesome.
I guess it all evens out; though all in all I have been more critical of Pleau than admiring.
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WaukeeBlues wrote:
Disagree. He was having a career year that season, and yea he was -17... on a team with guys in the -25 range BECAUSE we were so terrible that year. He was a player re-born that season and we trade him for a gamble AHL player nobody had heard of who promptly packed for Russia first chance he got. I REFUSE to believe he couldn't get anything else for Sillinger; the guy was a stud that year.
The works "Sillinger" and "stud" should never be used in the same sentence.
But I digress....At the time the team needed a potential long term problem to scoring. They obviously valued an NHL-ready prospect over a draft pick just for the immediate impact. They knew the risks involved when trading for a guy like Shishkanov. I have to believe that was the best deal out there only because any team in professional sports does anything they can to NOT trade within their own division. In the end the move didn't help either team really. Nashville didn't get their cup and we didn't get the young impact forward we needed. I'd call it a wash...
WaukeeBlues wrote:
Salvador didn't need to be an all-world talent, just reliable and responsible which is exactly what he was. If I were offered this trade, I probably would have laughed. Honestly. It was that bad.
Also gotta remember that both Jackman and Salvador had expiring contracts and both were wanting big money. Jackman probably would have commanded a bigger return just because of his reputation (at the time). But the decision was made that Jackman was more valuable long term than Salvador. I think the only reason people are sour about this trade is because of the way Jackman as regressed over the last two years. It wasn't a horrible trade at the time. But given the way our defensive corp has turned out recently, it just looks like another mis-step in the rebuild.
So what type of contract would you all expect Halak to sign in coming days or weeks?
I'm thinking somewhere in the 5 year/$20-22 mil range would be acceptable. He's got great numbers over a small sample size but he did stand tall in the playoffs. But I wouldn't give him anything over $4.5 mil a season. The proposal above would buy him out of his arbitration years plus an additional 3 years beyond that.
strocklen083 wrote: I think the only reason people are sour about this trade is because of the way Jackman as regressed over the last two years. It wasn't a horrible trade at the time. But given the way our defensive corp has turned out recently, it just looks like another mis-step in the rebuild.
I think people don't like the trade beacuse..
#1 - Jackman Sucks
#2 - Salvador would be the best defenseman on our team right now (at least defensibly)
#3 - Cam is a waste of a roster spot. I'm all for enforcers, but that's not Cam. He's there to entertain the fans, he's the grown-ups' 'Louie', and it costs us a valuable spot on the bench. I mean Louie runs into the boards and makes noise without hitting an opponent, why's does Cam have to dress out to do that?
I get your point about why they went with Jackman over Bryce, but they traded for Cam to help sell tickets....not to win hockey games and that's what I have a problem with.
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strocklen083 wrote:So what type of contract would you all expect Halak to sign in coming days or weeks?
I'm thinking somewhere in the 5 year/$20-22 mil range would be acceptable. He's got great numbers over a small sample size but he did stand tall in the playoffs. But I wouldn't give him anything over $4.5 mil a season. The proposal above would buy him out of his arbitration years plus an additional 3 years beyond that.
I REALLY hope it's not 5 years- that is way too long. I would be comfortable with 3- I think that'd be perfect. Long enough to give him a serious shot but short enough that if he obviously isn't panning out we're not f*cked in terms of the cap or trying to trade him.
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The gamble is if he does pan out he will cost more to retain 3 years from now than what he will get this year. In other words, say a 5 year deal now at 4 mil per. If he is as advertised, 3 years from now (if he only signs for 3) he will prolly be UFA and command 7 mil per. See Adam Oates. You choose long term security vs true market value year vs year.
Leedog wrote:The gamble is if he does pan out he will cost more to retain 3 years from now than what he will get this year. In other words, say a 5 year deal now at 4 mil per. If he is as advertised, 3 years from now (if he only signs for 3) he will prolly be UFA and command 7 mil per. See Adam Oates. You choose long term security vs true market value year vs year.
This.
5 years, 20 mil. sounds great to me, of course I think he knows the above as much as we do and will want a contract closer to 3 years. But, I don't think he signs for more than $4mil, $4.5 max.
Last edited by section319 on Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Since we have the cap room to play with incentives, they should sign him to something like 2 million per year, with BIG bonuses if he hits certain milestones.
Maybe an extra million per playoff round won.
It would be a 6 million dollar cap hit, but since we have the room, who cares.
Leedog wrote:The gamble is if he does pan out he will cost more to retain 3 years from now than what he will get this year. In other words, say a 5 year deal now at 4 mil per. If he is as advertised, 3 years from now (if he only signs for 3) he will prolly be UFA and command 7 mil per. See Adam Oates. You choose long term security vs true market value year vs year.
With forwards, I would agree with you (as you said- Adam Oates). They very rarely go from standout to doghouse within 5ish years. Goalies... eeehhhh. I get what you're saying I would just rather not take that chance.
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Leedog wrote:The gamble is if he does pan out he will cost more to retain 3 years from now than what he will get this year. In other words, say a 5 year deal now at 4 mil per. If he is as advertised, 3 years from now (if he only signs for 3) he will prolly be UFA and command 7 mil per. See Adam Oates. You choose long term security vs true market value year vs year.
With forwards, I would agree with you (as you said- Adam Oates). They very rarely go from standout to doghouse within 5ish years. Goalies... eeehhhh. I get what you're saying I would just rather not take that chance.
Mid-level forwards are relatively easy to acquire if you want to get one.
Difference making goalies are hardly ever available because teams don't let go of them. We've been trying to get one for the past...well...forever, and couldn't. They're tough to get.
Halak has been that guy so far in his short career. Could he be a one hit wonder? Sure, but you could say that about any good/great young player you acquire. If you want to win, you have to make moves like this once in a while.
I'd do this trade every time...and twice on Sundays.
kodos wrote:Since we have the cap room to play with incentives, they should sign him to something like 2 million per year, with BIG bonuses if he hits certain milestones.
Maybe an extra million per playoff round won.
It would be a 6 million dollar cap hit, but since we have the room, who cares.
Ugh, for the millionth time, per the current CBA, you can only have incentive bonuses on entry-level contracts and contracts for players that are over 35 when the contract kicks in. No incentives for a Halak deal.
And another reason that we didn't get as much for Pronger. About half the league was a UFA that year with all the crazy buyouts. Why give up a ton for Pronger when there were plenty of UFA defensemen to be had for just dollars. Also, a bunch of teams were over the cap and had to basically give away contracts. We let Demitra walk for absolutely nothing even though he was an RFA.
JWatt (formerly PMS) wrote:And another reason that we didn't get as much for Pronger. About half the league was a UFA that year with all the crazy buyouts. Why give up a ton for Pronger when there were plenty of UFA defensemen to be had for just dollars. Also, a bunch of teams were over the cap and had to basically give away contracts. We let Demitra walk for absolutely nothing even though he was an RFA.
But that's the thing that gets me about Pronger. Numerous reports have come through the woodwork that EDM offered Lynch, Woywitka and HORCOFF at first, but they were turned down because Pleau wanted another defenseman. So instead we got Brewer. I'm sorry, but if you would have asked 28 other GMs in the league at the time of the deal, they would have taken Horcoff over Brewer. Now, I would still take Horcoff over King Slow-ass.
Has Horcoff panned out to be a top guy in Edmonton? No, he hasn't. But giving him a different situation in a different city may have done wonders for the then-very young player.
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kodos wrote:Since we have the cap room to play with incentives, they should sign him to something like 2 million per year, with BIG bonuses if he hits certain milestones.
Maybe an extra million per playoff round won.
It would be a 6 million dollar cap hit, but since we have the room, who cares.
Ugh, for the millionth time, per the current CBA, you can only have incentive bonuses on entry-level contracts and contracts for players that are over 35 when the contract kicks in. No incentives for a Halak deal.
And another reason that we didn't get as much for Pronger. About half the league was a UFA that year with all the crazy buyouts. Why give up a ton for Pronger when there were plenty of UFA defensemen to be had for just dollars. Also, a bunch of teams were over the cap and had to basically give away contracts. We let Demitra walk for absolutely nothing even though he was an RFA.
All the more reason to hold on to Pronger instead of giving him away.
Many have hit on this already, but a great goalie can be the most important person on a team. This is a trade that simply had to be made.
hullisgod, curt and a few others I agree with...
eller has potential but he's unproven. he may be a bust. Halak has already proven to be a big game goalie.
If we had a guy like that during the Mac/Pronger heyday, we'd have won a Cup.
I'm a huge fan of this deal.
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goon attack wrote:Many have hit on this already, but a great goalie can be the most important person on a team. This is a trade that simply had to be made.
hullisgod, curt and a few others I agree with...
eller has potential but he's unproven. he may be a bust. Halak has already proven to be a big game goalie.
If we had a guy like that during the Mac/Pronger heyday, we'd have won a Cup.
I'm a huge fan of this deal.
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