Kariya, Paul

[DaDitka]

We need at least $10 million to even be in the running to sign Kolvy.

How do you figure?
Ovechkin makes $9 million per year and then it bumps to $10 million per year in 2014. Kovalchuk is a great player, but he doesn't bring as much to the table as Ovechkin. Ovechkin currently has almost 30 more points than Kovalchuk and he outscored him by 20+ pts. last year. Plus Ovechkin bring the physical aspect to the table and not to mention a more dynamic player with the puck.
Kovalchuk also has never reached 100pts. and he's been in the league 8 years now...and he's only cracked 90 pts. once in the past four seasons...and he won't hit 90 this season, hell...he probably won't hit 80 pts this year.

Kovalchuk makes $7.5 million now. That's about what he's worth I guess, but he figures to get a slight raise just because teams will overpay. I think $8.5 million could get him...unless he gets some goofy/retarded Zetterburg length contract where he makes $6 million or so per year for 500 years...which I think the Blues should try. They could try to offer him an 8 year contract and front load it so the first 4 years are worth $32 million ($8 million per) and the next two are worth $12 million ($6 million per) and the final 2 are with $2 million per. That's a $48 million contract over 8 years, and it's only $6 million against the cap each year.

Great points, but they don't mean sh*t.

Dude already turned down 10 mill a year and a contract for over 100 mill. Someone is going to give it to him period, so if you’re not willing to, you won’t get him.


What you'r worth and what you'll get are not always the same thing.

[WaukeeBlues]

We need at least $10 million to even be in the running to sign Kolvy.

How do you figure?
Ovechkin makes $9 million per year and then it bumps to $10 million per year in 2014. Kovalchuk is a great player, but he doesn't bring as much to the table as Ovechkin. Ovechkin currently has almost 30 more points than Kovalchuk and he outscored him by 20+ pts. last year. Plus Ovechkin bring the physical aspect to the table and not to mention a more dynamic player with the puck.
Kovalchuk also has never reached 100pts. and he's been in the league 8 years now...and he's only cracked 90 pts. once in the past four seasons...and he won't hit 90 this season, hell...he probably won't hit 80 pts this year.

Kovalchuk makes $7.5 million now. That's about what he's worth I guess, but he figures to get a slight raise just because teams will overpay. I think $8.5 million could get him...unless he gets some goofy/retarded Zetterburg length contract where he makes $6 million or so per year for 500 years...which I think the Blues should try. They could try to offer him an 8 year contract and front load it so the first 4 years are worth $32 million ($8 million per) and the next two are worth $12 million ($6 million per) and the final 2 are with $2 million per. That's a $48 million contract over 8 years, and it's only $6 million against the cap each year.

Great points, but they don't mean sh*t.

Dude already turned down 10 mill a year and a contract for over 100 mill. Someone is going to give it to him period, so if you’re not willing to, you won’t get him.


What you'r worth and what you'll get are not always the same thing.

I have a hard time believing the money is the reason. The guy can't possibly be that dumb to realistically believe that he could ask for, and get, more than what Ovechkin/Crosby are making (the faces of the NHL). Hossa's contract made big news, he's a 40+ goal scorer as well, and isn't anywhere close to making $10 mill a year.

He wanted to get out of Atlanta, irregardless of what they offered him. I don't believe that money is his primary motivation in looking for a contract. If it was, he wouldn't have left the Thrashers.

[DaDitka]

I have a hard time believing the money is the reason. The guy can't possibly be that dumb to realistically believe that he could ask for, and get, more than what Ovechkin/Crosby are making (the faces of the NHL). Hossa's contract made big news, he's a 40+ goal scorer as well, and isn't anywhere close to making $10 mill a year.

He wanted to get out of Atlanta, irregardless of what they offered him. I don't believe that money is his primary motivation in looking for a contract. If it was, he wouldn't have left the Thrashers.

I agree, to an extent, he wasn't staying in ATL PERIOD. if you are going long term ...8 + years and he's making over ten a year in the end and less than ten at the beginning...doesn't that average out to about ten. I certianly hope I'm wrong and that he'll siging for less, but if you're an organization that paid Paulie 6 mill a year comming out of Nashville, what in the hell makes you thing you can get Kolvy for 8 or 8.5?

I say earmark ten mill a year heading into negotiations and then hope you don't need it all.

That said, we not have as much available as we all thought, because it’s becoming quite clear that we’ve HAVE to cut ties with Jackman and probably Brewer and replacements will cost money on top of what it takes to rid yourselves of them.

If there were still any Jackman supporters, I think this weekend took care of that.

So with them letting Carlo walk (my guess), you’ve got to replace CC, Jacks, and Brewer and obviously Sydor is gone. If management forces Pie on the roster that’s certainly not going to help defensively, so we’re going to have to spend some money on the open market.

Unless we can clone Weaver.

[TheoSqua]

Kovy is a great player, but I think the Blues signing him would be something the team regrets over the long haul. It would be like when the team grabbed Tkachuk and centered their team around him. Tkachuk's been good in St. Louis and I feel he's done everything he coudl to help the team win, but I also think the Blues would have been a much better team if they had spread those resources around.

Same thing will happen for Kovy, in order to get him we'd have to absurdly overpay for him, and that would require him being the absolute centerpiece to this team. Kovy is good, but I don't think he has the leadership and defensive capabilities to carry a team on his shoulders ala Ovechkin. So St. Louis would end up being a bloated overmatched team that doesn't have the cap space to compensate for holes and bad signings. The buzz factor would be nice, paying Kovy 15-20% of your entire cap space? Not so much.


As for Kariya, if he's relatively cheap he's exactly the sort of player St. Louis needs to succeed. He has speed, some scoring touch, experience, and can provide depth. If he can take over for the likes of Crombeen/Winchester/King and provide more offensive depth, then he'd easily be worth $2m.

[DaDitka]

Kovy is a great player, but I think the Blues signing him would be something the team regrets over the long haul. It would be like when the team grabbed Tkachuk and centered their team around him. Tkachuk's been good in St. Louis and I feel he's done everything he coudl to help the team win, but I also think the Blues would have been a much better team if they had spread those resources around.

Same thing will happen for Kovy, in order to get him we'd have to absurdly overpay for him, and that would require him being the absolute centerpiece to this team. Kovy is good, but I don't think he has the leadership and defensive capabilities to carry a team on his shoulders ala Ovechkin. So St. Louis would end up being a bloated overmatched team that doesn't have the cap space to compensate for holes and bad signings. The buzz factor would be nice, paying Kovy 15-20% of your entire cap space? Not so much.


As for Kariya, if he's relatively cheap he's exactly the sort of player St. Louis needs to succeed. He has speed, some scoring touch, experience, and can provide depth. If he can take over for the likes of Crombeen/Winchester/King and provide more offensive depth, then he'd easily be worth $2m.

Valid points, but how do we get better then what we are right now? More unrealized prospects? More FA 15 goal scorers?

See, you are right, but since this organization is terrible at drafting and developing their own 'stars', we're forced to overpay 'stars' developed by other organizations.

[TheoSqua]

I think we have enough offense, I would look at obtaining better defense. I'd rather overpay for a solid goaltender than a center.

St. Louis is currently 18th in Goals For. I think they could crack the top15 with the same players they currently have next year. The combination of down years (Boyes, Kariya) and continued growth by the likes of Bergy and Oshie should be enough for a minimal increase in scoring. Goals Against, St. Louis is 15th. I think it'll be much cheaper to reduce the Goals Against significantly than it will be to increase goals scored.

[not_a_wings_fan]

I think we have enough offense, I would look at obtaining better defense. I'd rather overpay for a solid goaltender than a center.

St. Louis is currently 18th in Goals For. I think they could crack the top15 with the same players they currently have next year. The combination of down years (Boyes, Kariya) and continued growth by the likes of Bergy and Oshie should be enough for a minimal increase in scoring. Goals Against, St. Louis is 15th. I think it'll be much cheaper to reduce the Goals Against significantly than it will be to increase goals scored.

If you think this team has enough offense, then we have been watching different things all year long. This team has potted some goals lately, but for much of the season they were very near worst in the league. The entire reason we are chasing the playoffs is the lack of timely goal scoring. We NEED a guy that can consistently pot 35+ goals for us.

Show me a team that won the stanley cup without a 40 goal scorer.

If your goal is to make the playoffs, sure, keep getting steens and such. If you want to WIN in the playoffs, we need some serious upgrades in our top six forwards - bare minimum a bonafide #1 center and 35+ (goals, JD, goal... not AGE) wing.

[DaDitka]

If your goal is to make the playoffs, sure, keep getting steens and such. If you want to WIN in the playoffs, we need some serious upgrades in our top six forwards - bare minimum a bonafide #1 center and 35+ (goals, JD, goal... not AGE) wing.

That's why I keep saying to people who say "we're only 4 or 5 guys away" that they are correct, we need our #1 forward, #2 forward, #3 forward......and a top goaltender, a top two defensman....you get the point.

[TheoSqua]

If your goal is to make the playoffs, sure, keep getting steens and such. If you want to WIN in the playoffs, we need some serious upgrades in our top six forwards - bare minimum a bonafide #1 center and 35+ (goals, JD, goal... not AGE) wing.

That's why I keep saying to people who say "we're only 4 or 5 guys away" that they are correct, we need our #1 forward, #2 forward, #3 forward......and a top goaltender, a top two defensman....you get the point.

I'd be happy with making the playoffs and winning a few games as it stands. I still feel the cup is 3-4 years off at best. But it's all a matter of opinion. I'm the sort that would rather have a consistently competitive team ala the Cardinals, than a team who gets it all together for one run, wins it all, then tears the team apart and goes back to being a sub.500 team.

edit: I also just don't feel this team is that far off from being a 5/6 seed. The minor improvements made with the head coaching change, over the course of a season, is the differenec between 5 or so wins. Add another 5 wins to this team and it's fighting Colorado and Los Angeles, not looking up at Detroit and Calgary.

I don't feel the team will be cup caliber until our defense hits its prime. That means Johnson being a Norris/Hart contender (Pronger was, what, 26?), and a few of Runblad/Peitrangelo/Junland/etc. all coming to form as top-end defensemen. It just doesn't make sense to go and completely reshape the franchise, which is just as risky as standing pat, when the teams biggest assets have yet to completely develop.

[DaDitka]

I don't feel the team will be cup caliber until our defense hits its prime. That means Johnson being a Norris/Hart contender (Pronger was, what, 26?), and a few of Runblad/Peitrangelo/Junland/etc. all coming to form as top-end defensemen. It just doesn't make sense to go and completely reshape the franchise, which is just as risky as standing pat, when the teams biggest assets have yet to completely develop.

So you're counting on this organization to develop top-end talent, what have you EVER seen to make you expect that?

I hope they do, but I think counting on them to (passed on past performances) is clearly irresponsible.

[not_a_wings_fan]

If your goal is to make the playoffs, sure, keep getting steens and such. If you want to WIN in the playoffs, we need some serious upgrades in our top six forwards - bare minimum a bonafide #1 center and 35+ (goals, JD, goal... not AGE) wing.

That's why I keep saying to people who say "we're only 4 or 5 guys away" that they are correct, we need our #1 forward, #2 forward, #3 forward......and a top goaltender, a top two defensman....you get the point.

I'd be happy with making the playoffs and winning a few games as it stands. I still feel the cup is 3-4 years off at best. But it's all a matter of opinion. I'm the sort that would rather have a consistently competitive team ala the Cardinals, than a team who gets it all together for one run, wins it all, then tears the team apart and goes back to being a sub.500 team.

edit: I also just don't feel this team is that far off from being a 5/6 seed. The minor improvements made with the head coaching change, over the course of a season, is the differenec between 5 or so wins. Add another 5 wins to this team and it's fighting Colorado and Los Angeles, not looking up at Detroit and Calgary.

I don't feel the team will be cup caliber until our defense hits its prime. That means Johnson being a Norris/Hart contender (Pronger was, what, 26?), and a few of Runblad/Peitrangelo/Junland/etc. all coming to form as top-end defensemen. It just doesn't make sense to go and completely reshape the franchise, which is just as risky as standing pat, when the teams biggest assets have yet to completely develop.

I am guessing you aren't all that old... 25 years of being an also ran in the playoffs, and clearly it's time to win the whole show.

I have enjoyed watching these young guys come up and show what they have, but it's time to put up or shut up.

[TheoSqua]

Well I mean yeah, i'd love to see them put up or shut up. Thing is, when has this organization had the opportunity to develop talent?

Part of the problem is that every time this team develops a solid young core they trade it away for that talent that will "put them over the top". In '91 it was for Garth Butcher. Ten years later it was for Tkachuk/Weight/etc.

This time around, rather than seeing the team panic and overpay for a free agent that may or may not help the team or trade the farm for a couple of forwards that are about to start their decline phase i'd like to see them stick to the plan for once. Maybe it will fail and we'll all look back in hindsight and say they should have gone hard for Kovy or someone like that. But it's not like we haven't seen what happens when the Blues break from the internal-development plan and make moves to quickly improve the team. So far it hasn't been successful and I just think doing that again in this situation would just be setting the team up for a repeat of the last two rebuilds.

Being inconsistent is the definition of a young team. Way I see it is, if this team is as talented as they are now while everyone is in their early 20s and still learning, how good can they be when everyone is in their prime and have the consistency that's currently lacking?

[DaDitka]

Part of the problem is that every time this team develops a solid young core they trade it away for that talent that will "put them over the top". In '91 it was for Garth Butcher. Ten years later it was for Tkachuk/Weight/etc.

I'll roll with you on Butcher, but what 'difference making' talent did we trade for Walt or Dougie?

I was pissed that we dealt Nagy, but injuries ruined his career. So my point is that you certainly could not argue that this team would have been better off had those moves not been made.

Not to mention, look at what we did recycling Walt and Doug.

[TheoSqua]

Hecht/Nagy/Handzeus are the big three I can recall being traded. Then there was Mary Reasoner, Jeff Taffe, a first round pick, etc. None of them ever turned out to be amazing talent, but we have no idea what they'd have done if they stayed together. Plus all the money spend on resigning Tkachuk/Weight could have gone elsewhere. In '02/'03 seasons the Blues paid Weight/Tkachuk $20m/season combined.

Look at the goal differentials for the Blues during that time. In 1999 they were a +83, then they declined each year: +54/+39/+31/-7/-95(Yay Erik Johnson!). You really don't think basically trading their entire third line for two players that ended earning 20m/season didn't effect the Blues ability to obtain depth?

[DaDitka]

Hecht/Nagy/Handzeus are the big three I can recall being traded. Then there was Mary Reasoner, Jeff Taffe,

I think you've made our point.

So we traded a bunch of mediocre talent/role guys (at best) for actual NHL stars...yeah, that sucks.

To an extent, you could have a point, but the fact that this organization has failed repeatedly to develop talent despite numerous changes in those in charge means that you can not rely on that as your basis for improvement.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Blues prospects are kind of like the lottery, you hope to hit, but you know there is almost no chance in hell. You may get a free ticket or 3 bucks here and there, but that's it.

[glen a richter]

The Blues curse has been being too good in the years they would have benefited from sucking and sucking in the years they would have benefited from being better.

Hence guys like Johnson, Pietrangelo and Eller instead of Kane, Doughty (or Stamkos), retrospectively maybe should have also taken Toews or Backstrom instead of Johnson.

[DaDitka]

The Blues curse has been being too good in the years they would have benefited from sucking and sucking in the years they would have benefited from being better.

Hence guys like Johnson, Pietrangelo and Eller instead of Kane, Doughty (or Stamkos), retrospectively maybe should have also taken Toews or Backstrom instead of Johnson.

I may be forgetting someone here, have we drafted anyone since 1982 (Gilmour) that has made an allstar game?

[TheoSqua]

Thing is, none of those players were bad. They all would have served a purpose, and made the team deeper earlier in the decade.

I think we're both arguing the same points from different perspectives. In my eyes, the Blues have never let talent stay on the roster and take shape, they always trade it for an attempt to win now. In your eyes, they've never had talent to take shape and trades were the only option.

I personally think the Blues would have been in better shape keeping the likes of Hect and Nagy, signing some free agents, and going forward with better depth. Considering the best year that core group had was the season before Tkachuk or Weight was on the team, I think it's a valid point. Besides, it's not like either Weight or Tkachuk ever lived up the lofty expectations they were given when traded here. The first round picks we got out of them is probably the best production they've given. They weren't bad, but that's what happens when you trade for guys in their 30s and expect them to play like they did in their 20s.

[TheoSqua]

The Blues curse has been being too good in the years they would have benefited from sucking and sucking in the years they would have benefited from being better.

Hence guys like Johnson, Pietrangelo and Eller instead of Kane, Doughty (or Stamkos), retrospectively maybe should have also taken Toews or Backstrom instead of Johnson.

I may be forgetting someone here, have we drafted anyone since 1982 (Gilmour) that has made an allstar game?

Wikipedia says Ladislav Nagy did....I don't remember that. Also has Jochen Hect highlighted as an allstar....I don't remember that.

They drafted Rod Brind'Amour in 1988 and he eventually became an all-star.

[richtedm]

To an extent, you could have a point, but the fact that this organization has failed repeatedly to develop talent despite numerous changes in those in charge means that you can not rely on that as your basis for improvement.

To me, this point is where I keep disagreeing with you and others. I don't think you've given the current group of guys in charge time to prove they can develop NHL talent. They keep snagging gems in the late first round - sure they haven't turned into All-Stars... YET. But can you honestly say neither Berglund, Oshie, Perron or even Backes will NEVER develop into All-Stars? Some of them might, some might not, but to label them as busts already is so incredibly premature I wasn't even sure I should waste my time addressing it. Its simply too soon to say. The premium draft picks they HAVE been able to pick were defensemen. Defensemen take longer to develop. Again, its too soon to say.

The only area of drafting that I would criticize is goaltending. The Blues drafting a goalie DOES seem to akin to the Rams drafting a defensive lineman. It just ain't gonna work out.

I would also criticize them for passing on Paul Stastny, that one is gonna hurt as long as Paul is in the league.

But in summary, the one thing I am confident the Blues are doing right is identifying good prospects with the picks they are given. I agree its been historically a struggle, but I don't think it is any longer.