Pulling the Ell

[Oaklandblue]

So there's this article out there in regards to this situation: http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2015 ... /#comments

And I have to ask myself why would you pull this kind of stunt if you're trying to win a game? Granted it worked well enough to make a point literally, but it just seems like a BS move to me by Hitch. You don't rattle goalies like that if you're trying to send a message to the team, you do like Hitch did and bench Tank and put Bergy in his place on the line. Frankly, and I'm only saying this because it seems like it, but I really feel Hitch is starting to lose the team, just in terms of how they play, quality-wise, and how it seems to ebb and flow. We have a few good ones and then totally drop the soap when we're up against a halfway decent team or a team looking to make a statement. After seeing him pull Ells, I have to wonder if some of the issues the team is having, is being caused by Hitch?

The problem with the team in my eyes, is all about character and it's something that Stastny had mentioned offhandedly. They have the skill to win, but it's like sometimes they don't believe in themselves. I might be making a mountain out of a molehill by noting that, but it just seems that way to me. We don't notice it as much when they're winning because they won and when they lose, it's like a glaring sight.

What do you think?

[Toasted Oates]

If he has, indeed, lost the team, it's a tad too late in the year for them to be "lost." If they wanted to stage a mutiny against Hitch, December or January would have been the time to do it. He's not going anywhere now, and he probably doesn't deserve to the way the team has performed as a whole. Am I curious what they would look like without him? Sure, probably for the same reason I was glued to my phone all day yesterday (deadline). But they are not pushing the guy out in March and if they lay down for him in the playoffs, that's not a good look.

Bottom line, they have to goaltend better, finish some checks, hit the net, get back to that stingy D we've seen the last couple years. They play the way they can, it doesn't matter who the coach is. Have some pride and play, if not for him, for yourselves.

[cprice12]

That article is nothing we don't already know.

But if indeed there are some players who aren't buying into the system anymore (which I don't think is true), then Backes should shoulder a lot of the responsibility.
As captain, if he sees players veering from the coach's game plan and overall philosophy, he needs to speak up and try to keep guys in line.

A large part of their problems when they aren't playing well for stretches, has been shooting wide. They have missed the net an awful lot lately, for whatever reason, which only hurts the goals scored category...and goal scoring has been a bit of an issue lately, aside from last game. Is that Hitch losing his team? I don't see how.

The only real glaring issue (aside from shooting wide) we had against Vancouver was Allen's play. He didn't play well at all. Personally, I wanted to see Elliott start that game anyway seeing as we have three days off until the next game. We are trying to catch Nashville and Elliott could have played and then had three days to rest up. You have to think if Elliott plays that game, with everything else being equal...we win easily.

Allen did make a spectacular save on that breakaway late in the 3rd period though...that saved a point. So there's that. But even on that save, he has developed a bad habit of ending up on his belly on breakaways and shootout attempts. He lunges forward while kicking out his legs and sliding either way, and he leaves the top of the net wide open. It seems like Vancouver knew this and smoked him three straight in the shootout...which was frustrating.

[dmiles2186]

I don't know if he's 'lost the room' or not. We were saying the same thing last year when the team played like balls down the stretch and that was almost entirely due to the massive amount of injuries at the time. Part of it, to me, is that this time of year is all under a microscope. Every little thing is examined, especially after a loss because we know the Blues are the type that excels at faltering this time of year. I want to see how the next few days play out. My hope is that it was just a heated moment between coach in player in a long season. Personally, I feel like Ells has the mental fortitude to put it behind him and get back at it on Thursday. Allen, not so sure. Either way, if we rail off a couple wins in a row, this will be easily forgotten.

[glen a richter]

I don't normally buy into the whole "peaking at the right vs peaking at the wrong time" sort of thing, but I think it's conceivable that they're hitting a valley at the right time. Last year this team limped into the playoffs. This year they're limping into March. Plenty of time to right the ship.

[abc789987]

I'll say the same thing in here as I did in the GDT. I think nothing about this goalie situation... The guy who tweeted that crap in the first place was just speculating from the beginning. It got re-tweeted as it was a fact and it was nothing.

If Allen and Elliot aren't upset about getting pulled from the game, then we'd have some problems. IMO Hitch sort of admitted he made a mistake pulling Allen in the first place. Elliot was understandably upset for coming in and then getting pulled...

[ecbm]

What Hitch did with the goalies makes no sense-Keenan is the only guy I can recall doing that-and his response to questions about it was a brush off. He was f'ing with the goalies. Something is up, whatever it is.

I think Hitch's system becomes less and less fun to play as a season wears on and as more than one has commented here, there's never any plan b. It's just: work more, hit more, skate more. That's a reasonable orientation but psychologically maybe the squad needs something different every now and then? One of many reasons I didn't care for the Muller hire is he's the same sort of coach. He's not going to put his arm around a guy, he's not going to cook up a new approach when guys get burnt out, it's just gonna be give me more more more effort or we'll replace you. (Then there's the problem of players of certain stature never being dropped but that's another story.)

Related: there's a skewed narrative about last season that says the late season/playoff debacle was all about injuries. When you look at results & production from some key guys-Backes, Steen & goalies specifically-decline started with a loss to Vancouver on Jan 10 when the only guy out was Tarasenko. There was a slight upswing in March but from Jan 10-Feb 28, the Blues went 8-7-1. That's barely playoff form. Something happens to this team late in seasons if you ask me. Fixing that should be the priority.

[gaijin]

Good thing we thoroughly debunked that whole "Blues play poorly down the stretch" notion...

[cardsfan04]

I'm not too concerned about this. What Hitch did was strange (and probably a mistake). I would have been surprised if Elliott wasn't upset by it. If it lingers on, I think that's more indicative of an already existing tension than of this starting a problem.

I think Hitch botched it though. My guess is that Hitch thought that we needed to blank them in the 3rd to get a point, that Elliott gave us the best chance of doing so, and abandoned ship when it was 5-2 instead of 4-2. But, what's our chance of winning with Elliott in the 3rd vs Allen in the 3rd? 4% vs 3%? I made those numbers up, but down 4-2 on the road heading into the 3rd vs a playoff team isn't going to result in a win very often. Switching to Elliott doesn't really increase that very much either. I think Hitch realized it was a mistake and/or it wasn't going to work when they scored and decided Elliott getting hurt in that situation would look really really bad. But, I don't think it would look much better in a 4-2 game.

As for Hitch losing the locker room, I don't see it. Our record speaks for itself. If results are what we want, I don't see what coach would have a better record out of this team. He's done a good job this year with the team. To me, playoffs are the true test for Hitch, not the ebb and flow of the regular season, especially when we're a top 5 team in the league.

[cprice12]

What Hitch did with the goalies makes no sense-Keenan is the only guy I can recall doing that-and his response to questions about it was a brush off. He was f'ing with the goalies. Something is up, whatever it is.

It makes perfect sense to me. I'm not sure why Hitch's explanation isn't good enough.
He pulls Allen because he is playing like ass.
Elliott comes in to maybe give a spark to the team in a last ditch effort to get back into the game.
Elliott gives up a goal and Hitch feels the game is out of reach at this point, and fears that only bad things can happen (an injury) if Elliott stays in. So Allen goes back in.

I get that Elliott is upset about not staying in the game. He wants to play...I expect him to be annoyed about being pulled. But not in a controversial way, just a competitive way in that he wants to play...and that's likely all it is. What I don't get is how Allen could be "mentally drained" over it. Seriously? You need to be ready to go back in if need be, not mentally check out once pulled. He should have been excited to get back into the game to redeem himself. Elliott didn't want to come out...it sounded like Allen didn't want to go back in. If you ask me, the most glaring issue here isn't what Hitch or Elliott did...it's Allen's attitude. If the coach puts you in, you say "yes coach" and get your ass over the boards and give it all you've got. Period.

Doing what Hitch did isn't a crazy thing. It's happened before...a lot. And we had a great comeback and and got a point out of it after the goalie shuffling. So what's the problem again? I find it odd that people are freaking out over it. Like I said before, speculating that there is more to it, that Hitch is losing the team, that Elliott hates Hitch, etc., without any real evidence to support any of it, is weird.

Where is the old bi-polar meter we used to have?

[cardsfan04]

What Hitch did with the goalies makes no sense-Keenan is the only guy I can recall doing that-and his response to questions about it was a brush off. He was f'ing with the goalies. Something is up, whatever it is.

It makes perfect sense to me. I'm not sure why Hitch's explanation isn't good enough.
He pulls Allen because he is playing like ass.
Elliott comes in to maybe give a spark to the team in a last ditch effort to get back into the game.
Elliott gives up a goal and Hitch feels the game is out of reach at this point, and fears that only bad things can happen (an injury) if Elliott stays in. So Allen goes back in.

I get that Elliott is upset about not staying in the game. He wants to play...I expect him to be annoyed about being pulled. But not in a controversial way, just a competitive way in that he wants to play...and that's likely all it is. What I don't get is how Allen could be "mentally drained" over it. Seriously? You need to be ready to go back in if need be, not mentally check out once pulled. He should have been excited to get back into the game to redeem himself. Elliott didn't want to come out...it sounded like Allen didn't want to go back in. If you ask me, the most glaring issue here isn't what Hitch or Elliott did...it's Allen's attitude. If the coach puts you in, you say "yes coach" and get your ass over the boards and give it all you've got. Period.

Doing what Hitch did isn't a crazy thing. It's happened before...a lot. And we had a great comeback and and got a point out of it after the goalie shuffling. So what's the problem again? I find it odd that people are freaking out over it. Like I said before, speculating that there is more to it, that Hitch is losing the team, that Elliott hates Hitch, etc., without any real evidence to support any of it, is weird.

Where is the old bi-polar meter we used to have?

I agree with most everything you said except I wouldn't have pulled Allen in this particular situation. 4-3 instead of 4-2 I might have. At home I might have. In a more important game I might have. I would have just let this one play out though if I was going to switch back to Allen as soon as Elliott allowed a goal.

[ecbm]

Doing what Hitch did isn't a crazy thing. It's happened before...a lot.

OK, maybe I'm just being a speculative bi-polar person here ( ) but: examples? Anyone can assert anything, especially on the internet.

speculating that there is more to it

A couple thoughts:

1.) Somewhere around 50-95% of what's posted here is speculative. I suppose it's possible that while all speculation is equal, some speculation is more equal than other speculation.

2.) I can agree to disagree, but I'm not the type to believe it whenever someone tells me "move along, nothing to see here." I'm smelling a lot of smoke and not really buying that there's no fire.

He should have been excited to get back into the game to redeem himself.

Even at his tender age, I'd suggest Allen knows more about the customary methods of using personnel in a pro hockey game than anyone here. That he wasn't ready and was so candid about that itself tells you that this isn't a normal occurrence-in agreement with my admittedly anecdotal experience watching hockey for 30+ years. The only times I've ever seen both goalies pulled involved either both goalies giving up a lot of goals and/or Mike Keenan.

[drwoland]

I think the reality here is, Hitch was probably a bit unsettled by 4 unanswered goals and was trying to salvage the game by putting in Elliott. When he saw the 5th go in, he basically decided that the game was lost and that there was no point risking an injury to the starter. Yes, it's unusual, but that game was unusual too. We were getting ROLLED until Allen went back in. I am guessing that the interaction between Elliott and Hitch on his way back out of the game got the team's attention, whether it was intentional or not.

FWIW, as I was watching it at 5-2, all I could think was "someone's going to get hurt, FOR SURE" because we were clearly flailing in desperation. I definitely get where Hitch was coming from, if that was indeed his reasoning.

If they can't work past a little emotion when battling in a 5-2 game, then this team was fucked from the get-go. The fact they stormed back to tie it and got out of there with a point tells me they're fine.

Allen would be well advised to shut the (Frank) up after giving up 4 goals and not stopping a single shot in the shootout. Is it still possible for Marty to suit back up? Given Allen's last couple appearances, I wouldn't mind him getting a few games in the AHL to think about his life.

[Toasted Oates]

The goalie carousel happened in the Bruin game @ Scottrade a couple weeks ago (Subban-Rask-Subban). So it's not like it's totally unique to Keenan and Hitch FWIW. How often it happens throughout the League, I certainly can't speak to that.

Elliott was put in @ start of the 3rd. The Blues were on a power play and it was 4-2 Canucks. The coach's thinking probably is, "Let's make it a 4-3 game on this PP, then I've got my floundering backup goalie on the bench in a one goal game." I don't see the insanity in that. If Ells wants to be upset, whatever...that's his prerogative. However, I see where the coach is coming from.

[theohall]

++ to cprice on the situation.

One thing I caught in the shootout - Vancouver's first two shooters made essentially the same move with their skates and Allen bought it hook-line-and-sinker both times. This is concerning to me when Allen winds up in his next shootout.

[glen a richter]

++ to cprice on the situation.

One thing I caught in the shootout - Vancouver's first two shooters made essentially the same move with their skates and Allen bought it hook-line-and-sinker both times. This is concerning to me when Allen winds up in his next shootout.

I think Allen is prone to mental lapses. That's more concerning to me than what happens in his next shootout. He seems to space out a lot. He'll make the highlight reel save every now and again, but his focus isn't where it needs to be.

I don't know, does the team maintain a psychologist on the payroll? They should. It couldn't hurt.

[cprice12]

Doing what Hitch did isn't a crazy thing. It's happened before...a lot.

OK, maybe I'm just being a speculative bi-polar person here ( ) but: examples? Anyone can assert anything, especially on the internet.

I didn't mean the bi-polar comment as an insult, I was just thinking about the bi-polar meter that used to get posted here when the forum would get excited after wins and pissed after losses. Just meant it as a joke.
But like was already mentioned, the situation where a goalie gets pulled and then goes back in later in the same game happened with Rask & Subban the last time we played the Bruins.
I don't have any other specific examples off the top of my head, but I know I've seen it a number of times over the years. And yes, Keenan comes to mind when I see it, because he did it a number of times.
And no, it's not something you see a lot during a season...but it's like two goalies fighting each other...you see it from time to time. It happened with us in the Vancouver game, it happened with Boston against us recently...I am sure it has happened a few other times this year elsewhere...but that's just a guess.

speculating that there is more to it

A couple thoughts:

1.) Somewhere around 50-95% of what's posted here is speculative. I suppose it's possible that while all speculation is equal, some speculation is more equal than other speculation.

2.) I can agree to disagree, but I'm not the type to believe it whenever someone tells me "move along, nothing to see here." I'm smelling a lot of smoke and not really buying that there's no fire.

There may very well be something more to it than they are letting on. But we don't know.
Based on what I saw and what was said after the game, I have no real reason to believe that Hitch is lying, or to try to search for conspiracy theories. I'm cool with the explanation because it makes perfect sense to me.

He should have been excited to get back into the game to redeem himself.

Even at his tender age, I'd suggest Allen knows more about the customary methods of using personnel in a pro hockey game than anyone here. That he wasn't ready and was so candid about that itself tells you that this isn't a normal occurrence-in agreement with my admittedly anecdotal experience watching hockey for 30+ years. The only times I've ever seen both goalies pulled involved either both goalies giving up a lot of goals and/or Mike Keenan.

I'm not saying it's a normal situation. All I am saying is that I have issues with Allen saying he had mentally checked out. That can't happen. Elliott could have gotten hurt and he could be right back in the game. You don't sit there and let yourself mentally shut it down, and then to say it to the media after the game? What the hell? If I were Hitch I'd be pissed.

Something doesn't sit right with me about Allen this year. Yes, he is young and this is his rookie season and all, but he needs to keep his head in the f'ing game. He lets his mind wander or something at times because some of the goals he allows I'm like, what the hell was that? Was he asleep? Did he have his eyes closed? Was he daydreaming? Going into this season, some folks wanted him to be the #1 this year. When I would hear that I would think, "You've got to be kidding me." No way in hell should Allen be the #1 this year. Elliott is better. He has proven he is better. And Allen is a rookie on a team that wants to win the cup this year. There was zero chance Allen would be the #1 this year...and even if Elliott fell apart, we'd have traded for another veteran goalie and Allen would still be the backup, even if Allen was playing well.

And as I mentioned before, he is getting into some bad habits on chances in alone. He is always going down on his belly, lunging left or right when the shot is taken...and up high on both sides is wide open, and Vancouver knew that. Allen did it on the breakaway that he ended up making the save on in regulation, and he did it on all three shooters in the shootout. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if Allen only gets a few more starts the rest of the way until we can maybe rest Elliott the last game or two of the season, depending on where we are in the standings.

[goon attack]

Have you freakin' pansies lost your minds?

These guys are making TONS OF CASH! WADS OF CASH! It's like the Heather Locklear circa 1984 of cash making!

You're worried about how they "feel"? Motherfucking seriously?

Go out there for 60 minutes and play your (Franking) ass off... or GO (Frank) YOURSELF.



And if you fancy boys need to be reminded of what Heather Locklear looked like in 1984, take a gander at this:



Look at that shit. LOOK AT IT!

[Portland Blues]

Have you freakin' pansies lost your minds?

These guys are making TONS OF CASH! WADS OF CASH! It's like the Heather Locklear circa 1984 of cash making!

You're worried about how they "feel"? Motherfucking seriously?

Go out there for 60 minutes and play your (Franking) ass off... or GO (Frank) YOURSELF.



And if you fancy boys need to be reminded of what Heather Locklear looked like in 1984, take a gander at this:



Look at that shit. LOOK AT IT!

[Toasted Oates]