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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:31 pm 
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We should get the new NHL schedule around 6/21. They usually release the Wednesday following the conclusion of the finals. Looking forward to a fresh season.


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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 5:46 pm 
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WaukeeBlues wrote:
Ott's been a captain on multiple teams so he obviously has some leadership skills.

Apart from that I don't know the mans qualifications or not to be an NHL assistant coach. I think it's a bit idiotic to think Armstrong just thought to himself "Former Blues that can generate name recognition for the team even though they're not qualified... hmmm..."

I'd like to think I'm one of the more pessimistic of the group against Armstrong and I have no love for many of the moves he's made but good God people. Chill for a hot minute.

Chill, indeed. This would be the only fanbase that would lose its collective mind over the 3rd assistant coach. Those are super low stakes just to get him back in the locker room. I don't get the hostility, especially since we don't have to watch him play anymore hahaha.

They could go to the minors or college to find coaches/asst GMs, I guess. No question, the two head coaches in the SCF cut their teeth in the AHL and as assistants. I get that sentiment, I'm just MUCH more worried about the roster.

The roster improves and they still can't win or show growth? I'll grab the pitchforks with you. This was Hitch's downfall. Gotta have players and the Blues don't have enough right now.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 8:24 pm 
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The issue is management continuing to make what look like piss poor decisions, yet the fan base is all Ho-Hum. It's okay. No big deal. When are Blues fans going to actually challenge the crappy management decisions, instead of just going along. Were this the Cardinals re-hiring managers (equivalent of coaches) from a losing baseball team or guys with zero managing experience, the fan base would be up in arms. Treat Blues management the way Cards fans treat Cardinals management when they aren't improving the team.

No one seemingly wants to see actual improvement by hiring coaches to correct the deficiencies present in strategy from the last year's staff, even after Hitchcock left. Who is fixing the Blues PP when playing playoff level competition?? Ott, Sydor?? Sydor wasn't making it work in Minnesota with Yeo. Who is on the staff to try and correct the trailing by 1 goal late in the 3rd strategies? Yeo clearly sucked at it. Did anyone give up more empty netters than the Blues?? Yes, there is still one more hire, but the longer this drags out, the more likely it seems it won't be Berube who deserves another NHL opportunity. My bet is it will be someone a) Yeo worked with before or b) someone Armstrong worked with before. Too much "coaching nepotism" when it comes to Blues hiring coaches and not enough looking at coaching resumees.

Asst coaches can improve the play of a team - see Kirk Muller and the increase in the Blues and Canadiens PP in their respective past two seasons.

Mediocre hires from mediocre management to manage a mediocre roster built by the same mediocre management. Lots of mediocre.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 9:19 pm 
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theohall wrote:
The issue is management continuing to make what look like piss poor decisions, yet the fan base is all Ho-Hum. It's okay. No big deal. When are Blues fans going to actually challenge the crappy management decisions, instead of just going along. Were this the Cardinals re-hiring managers (equivalent of coaches) from a losing baseball team or guys with zero managing experience, the fan base would be up in arms. Treat Blues management the way Cards fans treat Cardinals management when they aren't improving the team.

They hired Joe Torre after he had been in broadcasting for 5 years. They hired LaRussa after 3 consecutive losing seasons in Oakland. Matheny had zero managerial experience and got to the World Series in his 2nd year.

For the most part, the Cardinal front office has been sensational. Really, as long as I can remember. LaRussa's tenure especially was rich with some great, great players. I don't know if Cardinal fans would be up in arms because I've never seen it, nor do I think I ever will with the money they pump in. All because of the players.

Players players players players

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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:06 am 
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The problem I see is that the Blues fans here are the only ones with the fortitude to question a decision like hiring Steve Ott. Most, as Theo said, are ho-hum types. Question your ownership and management or be relegated to a second tier team forever.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:22 am 
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I don't see the big deal in the Steve Ott hire. He wasn't great here as a player, but he isn't returning as a player. He's returning as a third assistant. This isn't an obviously bad hire to me like it is to some of you, but even if it is, this is such a low impact move (in either direction) that I just can't be too upset even if it doesn't work out.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:22 am 
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cardsfan04 wrote:
I don't see the big deal in the Steve Ott hire. He wasn't great here as a player, but he isn't returning as a player. He's returning as a third assistant. This isn't an obviously bad hire to me like it is to some of you, but even if it is, this is such a low impact move (in either direction) that I just can't be too upset even if it doesn't work out.


This.

And there's plenty I agree with in terms of the players. Rattie and Jaskin were never given a fair shake here, IMO. Guys like Parayko and Edmunson forced their way onto the roster and have stuck around so it's not like the coaches are NEVER playing the kids. They just, unfortunately, have to force their way on or have injuries take a toll to be inserted and take advantage of their opportunity.

Is that really SO different from any other team?

Management can improve in that arena, absolutely. I'm not saying they're geniuses. As a fan we ALWAYS want management and coaching to be better. I wouldn't shed a single tear if Armstrong was replaced. He's made some great moves (not re-signing Jackman, Brouwer, Backes, trading Elliott/Shatty, working out a HELL of a cap friendly 8 year deal for Tarasenko) and has made some crappy moves.

Maybe we're just not getting the right guys drafted? Maybe Rattie and Jaskin et al. really aren't that good? Maybe we've had bad luck in the draft in recent years?

Trust me: I'm as jealous and frustrated as anyone else seeing the Preds and Penguins pull these kids out of their proverbial arses that were drafted in the 3rd round and step right in and make a huge impact. Makes you frustrated and upset as to why it's not happening for YOUR team. But I don't think we're THAT off course.

As has been :deadhorse: in this thread: This, for me, was a transition year anyway. It was pure gravy. Lost Elliott, Backes, Brouwer and ultimately Shatty. My expectations weren't terribly high. And we still won a first round series and in near dominating fashion against a darn good Wild team.

Next year my expectations will be considerably higher. The core now knows how to win a playoff series. Kids are coming along. Our salary cap ship is largely in shape. We're not going to lose any major player in the expansion draft. We have two first round picks this year... It's not all terrible guys.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:25 am 
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It's not just Ott. It's Sydor, too. Another former Yeo assistant who started coaching with Yeo in Houston, moved with him to Minnesota, and is now with him with the Blues. We know how that worked out in Minnesota. The continued coaching/player nepotism thing. That's 3 of 4 coaches already here. I'm not just focused on Ott, but the entire coaching staff which is already half of the former Wild failure staff. Ott will likely be no more than a "player relations" guy, which should be the role of a Team Captain.

LaRussa had actually won a World Series and been to multiple LCS.
Torre was disaster as the Cardinals manager, but to be fair it was bad time to be managing the Cardinals thanks to Augie III.
Matheny is a rare exception.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:59 pm 
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I think I said it earlier in this thread, in not so much the same exact language, but Shattenkirk ultimately turned out to be a net negative if you look at the overall improvement on the D after he was traded. I suppose some of that could be attributed to the coaching change, but if I'm not mistaken Shattenkirk was minus-10 or so at the time of the trade which was by far the worst among the defensemen on roster. He's a one dimensional player who got by on account of being the best player in the trade when we got him.

As far as Ott being hired as a 3rd assistant, I suppose it's possible that it could work out, but we should reserve judgement for the end of the offseason. If it turns out the only splash they made was hiring him, then it's a colossal failure of an offseason. It's also insane if they're planning to make the argument that a returning Fabbri is good enough to get them over the hump. I'm afraid that may be their excuse for player personnel inactivity this year. Lose a guy to Vegas, replace him with an in-house minor leaguer and expect Fabbri to come riding on a white horse and save next season. They don't need major changes, but they certainly need a facelift on lines 3 and 4 and hiring Ott doesn't solve that problem at all.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:07 pm 
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theohall wrote:

LaRussa had actually won a World Series and been to multiple LCS.
Torre was disaster as the Cardinals manager, but to be fair it was bad time to be managing the Cardinals thanks to Augie III.
Matheny is a rare exception.

You mentioned hiring guys from losing teams. LaRussa came from 3 consecutive losing teams. Yeah, I'm aware of his success in Oakland, though it came 6 or 7 years before he came here. That's a long time in pro sports. You could argue, with all the superstars they had in Oakland, he should have won more than one championship.

I'd hardly say Torre was a "disaster." He had 3 winning seasons. Not great, but not a lot of money was being spent on the roster, as you alluded to.

Does Sydor gain any equity at all for being part of a successful AHL coaching staff last year? Berube gets plenty.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:06 pm 
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I had the same thought on Sydor. While I don't know a ton about his coaching ability, it seems like he must have done something right this past year in Chicago. If we're going to discredit him for his time in Minnesota (which I don't recall being a disaster, just ended poorly for Yeo), shouldn't we also give him credit for being part of a coaching staff that people rave about?

Like I said, I haven't followed him super closely. Maybe it's a mistake and I'm just blissfully ignorant. The angst here caught me offguard though.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 5:24 am 
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cardsfan04 wrote:
I had the same thought on Sydor. While I don't know a ton about his coaching ability, it seems like he must have done something right this past year in Chicago. If we're going to discredit him for his time in Minnesota (which I don't recall being a disaster, just ended poorly for Yeo), shouldn't we also give him credit for being part of a coaching staff that people rave about?

Like I said, I haven't followed him super closely. Maybe it's a mistake and I'm just blissfully ignorant. The angst here caught me offguard though.


Berube is at least someone initially from outside the organization who was hired to improve things at the developmental level - a rare spending of money by Blues management on AHL development recently. His only tie in is slightly related to Hicthcock when he was promoted from the Flyers AHL team to the Flyers NHL coaching staff when Hitchcock was fired.

Sydor had 1 year with the Wolves and 2 AHL years total and is still a Yeo holdover. How about more than 1 year of success or any success at all without riding Yeo's coattails. Better candidates are out there who have nothing to do with the coaching tree BS. His only other AHL experience - on Yeo's staff with Houston. Sydor = Yeo coattail rider.

The issue with coaches bringing in guys they worked with before, IMO, is too much comfort and too much familiarity - especially when that staff was ultimately let go for their failure to get the team to play to their message. Wouldn't it be better to bring in guys to fix your weak areas - not just guys you are comfortable with and know?

Yeo hasn't won anything as a head coach, unlike LaRussa who already had. That's why that's different. Correction - Yeo took the Houston Aeros their conference Finals with a completely rebuilt roster in his only season as their HC and was promoted to coach the Wild. One year as a head coach prior to being an NHL head coach. Was it the significant players added to the Aero's roster or Mike Yeo for the success that year or some combination of both?? We'll never know. The only thing that's certain is Mike Yeo coached teams average fewer goals/game than any of Hitchcock's team during Hitchcock's tenure with the Blues. It dropped this season after Hitchcock was fired.

The Blues need more scoring not less. Who on the staff is going to challenge Yeo about that issue in regards to his system? The system is great for defense, but horrible for a team that desperately needs to correct it's offensive issues. Hitchcock tried to address that in 15-16 and it worked by bringing in outside staff in Muller who hadn't worked with the Blues but briefly played for Hitchcock in Dallas. Then Armstrong strikes and the staff which got the team to Conference Final is cut in half and replaced with like-minded, defensively oriented, less offensively skilled coaches. We are seeing the same type staff with different names being implemented. Don't get why anyone is "okay" with it. Just means 1st or 2nd round playoff exit next season. Calling it now, regardless of the last assistant hired. Adding talent won't help Yeo either. He had Ryan Suter and Zach Parise added to his roster he still couldn't get past the 2nd round and struggled to get his team past 4th in the Central. This is half the Blues coaching staff - the 4th place in the Central Wild coaches and Steve Ott. I'm just brimming with confidence about that trio.

Had Yeo's staff actually shown improvement over time - vice the single season blip when Suter and Parise were added (still 1st round exit that year), I might be okay with it. But it got worse after that one season - not better.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:01 am 
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No strong feelings one way or the other concerning Ott coming back- I have a feeling he'll be more useful to the team as an asst coach than he was as a roster player.

My concern is the same that others have already voiced- this team is going to need some bold actions and risk-taking from the management in order to finally get over that hump of winning a Cup. This hiring does not appear to fall into the category of bold management actions. And like has been said, this isn't a knock against Ott's hiring specifically, it is just one more in a string of decisions that indicate the exact opposite of bold actions.

It's same old, same old.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Quote:
Barret Jackman returning to Blues as development coach
By Stephanie Baumer, Online News ProducerCONNECT

St. Louis Blues' Barret Jackman in action during the third period of an NHL hockey game against the Dallas Stars, Tuesday, Feb. 17, 2015, in St. Louis.
St. Louis Blues' Barret Jackman in action during the third period of an NHL hockey game against the Dallas Stars, Tuesday, Feb. 17, 2015, in St. Louis.
ST. LOUIS (KMOV.com) – Barret Jackman will be returning to the St. Louis Blues as the team’s development coach.

Friday, the team announced the 14-year NHL veteran would be primarily working with team prospects and draft picks in his new position. Jackman plans to join the club at the NHL draft later this month.

Jackman was drafted by the Blues in 1999 and ranks second on the club’s all-time games played list with 803. In October, he announced his retirement as a player.


This I am okay with. It's how Steve Thomas started coaching with Tampa Bay and a position he did well in for 6 years. It's the kind of position Ott should have been assigned to, if not an AHL assistant gig, before jumping straight in as an NHL assistant.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:50 pm 
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From JR's chat - Berube is the next assistant if he doesn't go elsewhere (Buffalo is waiting to hear from Housley). If not Berube, the next assistant is - another guy who coached with Yeo - Michel Therrien. See what I mean? No chance taking - just familiarity. Therrien is the definition of a coach who sees success in streaks, but rarely over sustained periods of time. Therrien went from losing the Finals to Detroit in '08 to being fired in Feb of '09. His teams are that streaky.

Therrien weaknesses:
Low scoring teams
Fails to develop new players
Weak power play. (Note, the Canadiens hired Muller as an assistant to correct this Therrien deficiency - whose the Blues guy to correct the Blues PP deficiency if Therrien is hired)

In other words, just what the Blues need. :roll:

Interestingly, since Therrien left Pittsburgh, they have done outstanding at developing and incorporating young talent in their system at all levels, outside of the one blip at the beginning of the 2015 season when they gave the wrong guy the HC gig.

So it seems Yeo was told hire whomever you want. It's your staff. And it will fall on it's face again.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:31 am 
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theohall wrote:
Quote:
Barret Jackman returning to Blues as development coach
By Stephanie Baumer, Online News ProducerCONNECT

St. Louis Blues' Barret Jackman in action during the third period of an NHL hockey game against the Dallas Stars, Tuesday, Feb. 17, 2015, in St. Louis.
St. Louis Blues' Barret Jackman in action during the third period of an NHL hockey game against the Dallas Stars, Tuesday, Feb. 17, 2015, in St. Louis.
ST. LOUIS (KMOV.com) – Barret Jackman will be returning to the St. Louis Blues as the team’s development coach.

Friday, the team announced the 14-year NHL veteran would be primarily working with team prospects and draft picks in his new position. Jackman plans to join the club at the NHL draft later this month.

Jackman was drafted by the Blues in 1999 and ranks second on the club’s all-time games played list with 803. In October, he announced his retirement as a player.


This I am okay with. It's how Steve Thomas started coaching with Tampa Bay and a position he did well in for 6 years. It's the kind of position Ott should have been assigned to, if not an AHL assistant gig, before jumping straight in as an NHL assistant.

The job they're giving Jackman is more important organizationally. You're severely overrating the role of the 3rd assistant coach who won't even stand behind the bench. You hate Ott in that role, but would rather him be involved in the development of prospects. What is it do you think a 3rd assistant coach does? Maybe we should have been blaming the great Ray Bennett all along.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:45 am 
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Toasted Oates wrote:
The job they're giving Jackman is more important organizationally. You're severely overrating the role of the 3rd assistant coach who won't even stand behind the bench. You hate Ott in that role, but would rather him be involved in the development of prospects. What is it do you think a 3rd assistant coach does? Maybe we should have been blaming the great Ray Bennett all along.


I don't know why you all are focusing on just the Ott comments. The entire staff sucks from the head coach on down - and it won't get any better adding friggin' Therrien if Berube winds up elsewhere.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:15 pm 
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WaukeeBlues wrote:
Ott's been a captain on multiple teams so he obviously has some leadership skills.

Brett Hull was a captain. So was Eric Brewer. So was Ilya Kovalchuk. I wouldn't call any of them "great candidates to be coaches in the future" - and Brewer is arguably the best shot at doing it. (If he ever wants/gets a chance.) In some cases, yes - a letter on the jersey says something. Other times, it's more or less "longevity" or "we're hoping he grows into it" (see: Johnson, Erik - 'A' in the 2010-11 season) or "(Frank), someone's gotta wear it."

Beyond that, I don't see the compelling case for why Ott is going to make a good assistant coach. If he does great, fine; I'll be back to admit I was wrong. I just don't see anything in his playing career that suggests he has any idea what to do. Put another way: if Yeo has to miss a couple of weeks because of [insert some reason here], who here really trusts Sydor/Ott (and now Jackman) to competently run this team for that week? I don't need brilliance, but I do need better than the fat guy in section 321 who wears the stained, greasy wife beater to the game.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:03 pm 
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WaukeeBlues wrote:
Ott's been a captain on multiple teams so he obviously has some leadership skills.

Just not the Blues - not even an assistant/alternate Captain with the Blues.

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 Post subject: Re: 2016-17 Post-Mortem
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:31 pm 
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The coaching staff isn't full yet. Unless Yeo and the 1st assistant are both indisposed at the same time, Sydor will never run the show. Neither will Ott. Not that it matters.

They could assemble the most legendary/hallowed coaching staff in the history of hockey, but not even Scotty Bowman or the late Al Arbour or Joel Quenneville or Gordon Bombay or Herb Brooks (RIP) or who the eff ever is going to win a Stanley Cup with this group of centers or forwards in general.

You could lay a giant sack of shit @ Armstrong's feet, but the biggest turd in there is how he has constructed the roster as of today, 6/6/17. Scream to the heavens about this perceived trash coaching staff all you want (hey, it keeps this forum active), but it means JACK SQUAT (RIP Chris Farley) right now.

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